nude together wrote:RE: "Matt 24:20 "Pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath Day." This event occurred in 70AD, some 40 years after Christ's death, burial, ressurrection and ascention."
** My answer: This was not a reference to the events of 70AD, Jesus was referring to the flight of the Jews after the anti-christ sets up his idol in the newly built temple and declares himself to be god and to be worshipped. The "abomination that causes desolation." But, that is a whole other debate. I’m curious, natman, would you classify yourself as a "a-millennialist?" If so, that would help me understand you much better.
Indeed I AM.
If you read Matt 24 in context, Jesus is talking about the Herodian Temple and Jerusalem and their "soon", within "this generation" destruction, which destruction did occur precisely as Jesus prophesied a mere 40 years later in 70AD.
nude together wrote:No possible way the statements of Jesus in Matt. 24 came to pass by 70AD! Here it is in context...
** My answer: Jesus was asked three SEPARATE questions here in the beginning of Matt: 24. And that is a very important point concerning His answers in Matt. 24 and what they pertain to.
“Tell us,” they said, “when will THIS happen;" the "this" is referring to in Jesus' statement concerning the temple of "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” The "this" must have ONLY referred to His statement about the temple being totally destroyed because that is ALL He had said to them.
Jesus did not mention anything at that time (when referring to the temple) about the end of the world or what would happen before the end. Nothing. Later on, while Jesus was sitting on the Mt. of Olives His Disciples asked the THREE separate and distinct questions. And His answers address them as such.
> First question - Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen?" Again, THIS" is referring to the destruction of the temple. You can't apply His total answer to the events of 70AD simply because the events He mentioned to happen by 70AD DID NOT HAPPEN before the destruction of the temple in 70AD. If everything was to happen, all of Matt. 24, before the temple destruction in 70AD, then Jesus got it completely wrong.
> Second question - "and what will be the sign of your coming?" (Jesus DID NOT come right after the events of 70AD and therefore could not being tying His second coming to 70AD, but rather a time in the future. He is STILL yet to come back to Earth).
> Third question - "and of the end of the age?" (Not sure about your opinion, brother natman, but the END OF THE AGE did not happen right after 70AD unless you know something I don’t.)
Let's examine the three Synoptic Gospels that discuss these questions.
"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
"As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
“Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
"Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
It appears obvious that the disciples ask a series of two conjoined and related questions, not three separate and disjointed questions.
They ask "When will these things happen?" What things? The destruction of the Temple that they had just spent 40 years rebuilding and remodeling. Then, associated with that question, "What will be the sign that it is about to happen?"
The "end of the age" is not a question about the "end of time" or the "Last Day". It was a question about when the end of the Temple or the Temple Age would come.
If we had a similar conversation in the early 2001, if someone had said they knew that the Twin Towers were going to be destroyed soon. They would be asked, "When will this happen, what will be some of the signs so that we can save ourselves and warn others and will it be the end of the US as we know it?" The would not likely ask, "When will this happen, what will be some of the signs so that we can save ourselves, oh and what will happen at the end of time?"
nude together wrote:The things that DID NOT happen before (and just after) the temple was destroyed in 70AD are...
** BEFORE 70AD...
- "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars" (no indication that they had heard such things before 70AD)
- "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (no indication that they had heard or experienced such things before 70AD)
Actually, there were rumblings of war for about five years before the destruction of the Temple. The Jewis Zealots began an uprising when the Roman Standards were placed inside the Temple so that Caesar could be worship alongside Jehovah. As the situation escalated, Rome began sending troops in preparation for the ultimate siege that would occur in 70AD.
nude together wrote:- "and you will be hated by all nations because of me ("HATED BY ALL NATIONS" ...all the nations on Earth didn't even know about them or that they even existed at 70AD, how could they hate them?)
"All nations" refers to all of the nations that were know in that region at that time. Certainly, history shows that Christians were persecuted wherever they went from the moment Christ ascended until the Destruction of the Temple and even beyond.
nude together wrote:- "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations" (the Gospel HAD NOT been yet been preached to the ALL NATIONS, it was not too long after. But, I have to mention here…had the gospel been preached to American Indians, The Chinese, All of South America, Japan, India by 70AD? I think not!)
Again, the "whole world" was understood to be the world as it was known at that time. The rest of the world had not been occupied or discovered.
nude together wrote:- So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
> No "abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel" (had NOT happened by 70AD, STILL has yet not happened in 2011AD)
The abomination that causes desolation was the aforementioned Roman Standards which desecrated the temple. They were the cause of the Jewish uprising that ultimately resulted in the desolation of both Jerusalem, the Temple as well as about 2 million Jews.
nude together wrote: > For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (Are you telling me that the sacking of Jerusalem and the tearing down of the temple qualifies as "unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again?" NOT HARDLY!!)
This is clearly apocalyptic language, used elsewhere in Scripture to describe HORRIFIC events.
Ezekiel 5:8-9 - Describing the Seige of Jerusalem in 586BC
“Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again."
Exodus 11:6 - Describing the Plague of the first born in Egypt
"There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."
Joel 2:2 - Lamentations for the repentence of Israel
"A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come."
nude together wrote:- "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." (What days are shorten? And, NO ONE would survive? No one on Earth would survive the sacking of Jerusalem and the tearing down of the temple unless the days be shortened?!! Again, NOT HARDLY, and DID NOT HAPPEN at the sacking of the temple. Last I looked, the rest of the world survived the events in Jerusalem in 70AD without much bother and those days did not have to be shortened.)
Fortunately, the Romans limited their seige to Jerusalem and did not extend it beyond into the mountains, where the Christians had fled during the run up.
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
This exodus was recorded by Josephus and by Eusebius...
"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (Eusebius: Book III, 5:4)
nude together wrote:Oops, Jesus must have got it wrong.
This is the precise danger in taking Scripture out of context.
nude together wrote:** JUST (OR IMMEDIATELY) AFTER 70AD...
“Immediately after the distress of those days" (Could NOT be immediately after 70AD, because the following DID NOT happen right after the "distress OF THOSE DAYS / 70AD."
- "the sun will be darkened," (no historical record of that happening immediately after 70AD.)
- and the moon will not give its light" (no historical record of that happening immediately after 70AD.)
- "the stars will fall from the sky," (no historical record of that happening immediately after 70AD.)
- and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. (Did this happen right after? Don't think so, natman, not that I can recall reading about)
- “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (NONE of this happned "immediately after the distress of those days." NONE. No one on Earth saw "Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory" though we will soon!)
Again, all of these are a the same apocalyptic language use by the OT prophets.
Isaiah 13:9-10 - Pertaining to the fall of Babylon
"See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."
Ezekiel 32:7 - Written about the destruction the Temple in 586BC
"And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light."
"Coming clouds" is an apocalytic reference to God coming in judgement. The reference to clouds and judgement is peppered throughout the Old Testament. Wherever God was, there was almost always a mention of clouds.
Isaiah 19:1 - A prophesy of God's judgement against Egypt
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it."
Isaiah 44:22 - God coming to cleans Israel
"I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee."
Jeremiah 4:13 - Describing the Babylonian seige of Jerusalem in 598BC
"Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled."
Remember, in Matt 26:64, Jesus told the Sanhedrin,
“But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Please note that Jesus said "YOU", not "THEY" or "Someone in the distant future" will see the Son of Man (Jesus Himself) "coming on the clouds of Heaven." He was affirming His return as God, in Judgement against Jerusalem and it's leaders within their own generation. It is the reason they took up stones to kill him. This is referred to as a "perusia". Just as God never needed to appear physically in order to bring judgement in the OT, neither did God the Son need to appear physically to bring judgement. The destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple occurred because the Jewish leaders and the people REFUSED to accept Christ as Lord and Savior, refused to stop offering up blood sacrifices and because of all the people of the world who SHOULD have recognized their Messiah, it should have been them.
nude together wrote:** Point to make; I have noticed that when I post a comment and/or scripture strongly calling into question one of your beliefs you counter with an answer that I am "reading out of context" but do not establish what said context should be.
I did not think I had to. In general, it is understood that the "context" of a piece of Scripture (or any literature for that matter) is usually the chapters in which the Scripture is found, sometimes several before and after. Otherwise, we can make the Bible say just about anything we want.
However, if a context is not obvious to you, please ask and I will spell it out.
nude together wrote:I have a a-millennialist friend who does EXACTLY the same thing.
Also, another highly alarming problem with a-millennialism is the massive use of algorizing large sections of scripture to twist scripture into conforming to a-millennialist doctrine. I find that highly disturbing and deceptive. Not to mention causing a lot of confusion among Christians.
Funny! That is precisely what many of my amillennial friends say about millennialists and dispensationalists.
nude together wrote:** Interesting wiki article on a-millennialism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
"The first two centuries of the church held both premillennial and amillennial opinions. Although none of the available Church Fathers advocate amillennialism in the 1st century,"
It is understandable, especiallly in the light of the fact that even now, after we have had 2000 years to figure things out, to recognize what was euphemism, algory, apocalyptic language and what was literal, we are STILL discussing it.
nude together wrote:OK, done for now, natman.
(** This post was sent by email to my a-millennialist friend, John)