Millennialism vs Amillennialism

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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby nude together » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:18 am

Johannes_1965 wrote:The image of the great chain says that Satan has a power to act where people get into the range of it.
"He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev 3,21, see Rev 12,10-11)
I deny that the image of Satan chained up in the abyss means that he has no power on earth at all and I deny that the image of Satan being released means that Christs work of redemption has no power to save any longer.
Both are only an image that fits into the rest of the Bible, into the verses you have quoted about the power of Satan and its absolute limitation by faith in the cross, in the love of Christ.
I deny that the 1000 years mean a coming extra time before the Last Judgement, where all the verses you quoted are not any longer valid.
Johannes


RE: "The image of the great chain says that Satan has a power to act where people get into the range of it."

I'm not even going to address something that absurd and silly, sorry, I just don't have it in me, other to say that is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time! Sorry, just not going to waste my time other than to say...

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:20 am

nude together wrote:
nude together wrote:Jesus insulted the Pharisees and Paul called the Galatians "bewitched fools," so what? Lies are lies. Get over it. Does truth mean anything to you? Do facts mean anything to you? Or are you here, as Petros, to attack anything I post just to be antagonistic and funny?


If you look back it was my post on Zechariah which resurrected this strip. You have hijacked it and escalated the language to a point where meaningful dialog is difficult...

As far as facts go, I don't believe I even questioned your facts, just your antagonistic language.


No one has hijacked anything, I responded to a post in keeping with the stream of the thread. That is not hijacking anything. My language is not antagonistic at all, it is, however, straight forward and honest. It is nothing more than you would hear from any pulpit with integrity.


So then, where does Zechariah fit into your scheme? You haven't commented.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Johannes_1965 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:53 am

nude together wrote:RE: "The image of the great chain says that Satan has a power to act where people get into the range of it."

I'm not even going to address something that absurd and silly, sorry, I just don't have it in me, other to say that is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time! Sorry, just not going to waste my time other than to say...

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


We will see when Christ returns which interpretation is true and which is "absurd and silly".
To me it's the literal interpretation in this case which is not only against the sense of the rest of the NT but also unreasonable in itself.
When Christ will reign literally on this earth for 1000 years, why and by whom should Satan be released again?
Will the king with his saints need some holidays and retreat themselves to allow a comeback of Satan?
Moreover Jesus said his kingdom is not from this world (John 18,36) and it won't be from this world when he comes in glory. There won't be a limited 1000 year reign to come, because his kingdom is already unlimited and will be without end in the world to come.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Petros » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:36 am

"We will see when Christ returns which interpretation is true and which is "absurd and silly"."

And THAT is well said, nor are your other points worthy of ridicule.

As for me, I wonder and continue to wonder and till I am shown all clearly will wonder, why men scribble scrabble to interpret and fight over the record of a vision which was [clearly] not transparent to the one receiving the showings, the key to which we are explicitly told is not given us.

As if it is life and death to the church militant to determine the shape of the scales on the dragon's nose and their implication.

But gnostics were ever prone to "explicating" mysteries.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:17 pm

nude together wrote:3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


Johannes, one is not at liberty to dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse (book of Revelations).
If he says by the power of the Holy Spirit that Satan is to be briefly released after the Millennium, then so be it. I am sure that God will explain it to all of us in due time. Perhaps the details and the reason for all this will be obvious when the time comes.

Scholars who hold to a literal millennium teach that at the end of the Millennium comes the resurrection of the wicked, (the second resurrection). They will fight against Jesus along with Satan and be overthrown, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. Eternal torment or eternal annihilation? Speculate all you want. I want no part of either fate.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Petros » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:33 pm

And so say all of us, I trust. As Peter says, "where are we to go"? The fine details hardly matter - I just know I want to stick with Christ and ignore questions like what shape is Satan's nose.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Johannes_1965 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:11 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
nude together wrote:3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


Johannes, one is not at liberty to dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse (book of Revelations).
If he says by the power of the Holy Spirit that Satan is to be briefly released after the Millennium, then so be it. I am sure that God will explain it to all of us in due time. Perhaps the details and the reason for all this will be obvious when the time comes.

Scholars who hold to a literal millennium teach that at the end of the Millennium comes the resurrection of the wicked, (the second resurrection). They will fight against Jesus along with Satan and be overthrown, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. Eternal torment or eternal annihilation? Speculate all you want. I want no part of either fate.


Ramblinman, I don't dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse,
but I dispute the kind of literal interpretation of his vision that seems to be held by the majority here.
I also take Rev 20 "literal", historical or serious but in another way.

So I think we live in our days that "short time" where Satan is set free. After a "millenium" of expansion of the Church in its history we witness a regression of the Church, where many turn their back to God and embrace consciously Satan and sin. When this development reaches its climax Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Petros » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:34 pm

I am reminded of waiting for someone - someone I know very well - at airport or rail station.

I stand and watch and wait, and I see the person - but it isn't. And THERE he is - but no, wrong coat. FINALLY there he is - my mistake. Until the right one REALLY comes and then how could I have been deceived?

We will know the REAL "literal interpretation" when it is really here, and most of the others will be forgotten.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby natman » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:49 pm

Johannes_1965 wrote:Ramblinman, I don't dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse,
but I dispute the kind of literal interpretation of his vision that seems to be held by the majority here.


I do not know or even think that a literal 1000 year (as in 999+1) is the position held by the "majority" here nor definitely in the rest of the world, especially considering that Catholics, which comprise the majority of Christians by themselves, are doctrinally amillennial, followed by Lutherans, Presbyterians and several Reformed denominations.

Johannes_1965 wrote:I also take Rev 20 "literal", historical or serious but in another way.


I would assume that you are referring to "literal" as in "literary", taking it in context of local and global Scripture.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:11 pm

Johannes_1965 wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:
nude together wrote:3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


Johannes, one is not at liberty to dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse (book of Revelations).
If he says by the power of the Holy Spirit that Satan is to be briefly released after the Millennium, then so be it. I am sure that God will explain it to all of us in due time. Perhaps the details and the reason for all this will be obvious when the time comes.

Scholars who hold to a literal millennium teach that at the end of the Millennium comes the resurrection of the wicked, (the second resurrection). They will fight against Jesus along with Satan and be overthrown, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. Eternal torment or eternal annihilation? Speculate all you want. I want no part of either fate.


Ramblinman, I don't dispute John, the author of the Apocalypse,
but I dispute the kind of literal interpretation of his vision that seems to be held by the majority here.
I also take Rev 20 "literal", historical or serious but in another way.

So I think we live in our days that "short time" where Satan is set free. After a "millenium" of expansion of the Church in its history we witness a regression of the Church, where many turn their back to God and embrace consciously Satan and sin. When this development reaches its climax Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
Johannes


Satan cannot be "free" until the Perfect is taken away, the Holy Spirit. So where is the Holy Spirit? Answer: Indwelling those who are Christian believers.
Have all Christian believers been removed from the face of the Earth? No.
So, is Satan "free"? No

As for the question of the purity of the Church in the past millenium?
Inquisition, Bloody Crusades in the Holy Land, Sale of Indulgences, Persecution of the Saints, Two popes: one in Avignon, the other in Rome, divide with the Eastern Church...

All this actually makes a case that the Church has been apostate since sometime after Constantine and only revived (in part) with Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, Wycliff, et alibi roughly 500 years ago.

Ironically if the Millenium of Satan is already behind us, it would fit neatly into this time frame: Anno Domini 500 to Anno Domini 1500. But I agree that plenty of evil occurred in more recent years.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby natman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:45 pm

Ramblinman,

I think we are in agreement to a point. I would like to add to what you are saying.

Ramblinman wrote:Satan cannot be "free" until the Perfect is taken away, the Holy Spirit. So where is the Holy Spirit? Answer: Indwelling those who are Christian believers.
Have all Christian believers been removed from the face of the Earth? No.
So, is Satan "free"? No


I agree. It would appear that Satan is still very much alive and active as the "Ruler of this world". He can work out his treachery to cause pain, suffering and death. However, for those who are in Christ, indwelt with the Holy Spirit as you point out, he very much "bound" in that he has no power over us apart from working to make us ineffective in our witness. And he will likewise remain "bound" except for a brief moment at the final return of Christ.

Ramblinman wrote:As for the question of the purity of the Church in the past millenium?
Inquisition, Bloody Crusades in the Holy Land, Sale of Indulgences, Persecution of the Saints, Two popes: one in Avignon, the other in Rome, divide with the Eastern Church...

All this actually makes a case that the Church has been apostate since sometime after Constantine and only revived (in part) with Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, Wycliff, et alibi roughly 500 years ago.


I THINK that the event that you describe above, although done in the "name" of the Church, were ACTUALLY carried out by those "outside" THE Church. Neither Scripture nor Holy Tradition gave any of them the right nor authority to do what they did.

The church actually consists of two parts; the visible church which is the gathering of those who "call" themselves "Christians", the wheat and chaffe or sheep and goats combined; and the invisible church, which are ACTUAL "Christians", those who have placed their faith and trust exclusively in the finished work of Christ, the wheat, the sheep or the "Holy Remnant", "True Israel".
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:22 pm

natman wrote:Ramblinman,

I think we are in agreement to a point. I would like to add to what you are saying.

I think I only agree with my own words up to a point. This forum is sometimes a vehicle for me to think out loud, throw mud on the wall to see if any of it sticks and passes scrutiny from my fellow believers here.

Ramblinman wrote:As for the question of the purity of the Church in the past millenium?
Inquisition, Bloody Crusades in the Holy Land, Sale of Indulgences, Persecution of the Saints, Two popes: one in Avignon, the other in Rome, divide with the Eastern Church...

All this actually makes a case that the Church has been apostate since sometime after Constantine and only revived (in part) with Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, Wycliff, et alibi roughly 500 years ago.


natman wrote:I THINK that the event that you describe above, although done in the "name" of the Church, were ACTUALLY carried out by those "outside" THE Church. Neither Scripture nor Holy Tradition gave any of them the right nor authority to do what they did.

The church actually consists of two parts; the visible church which is the gathering of those who "call" themselves "Christians", the wheat and chaffe or sheep and goats combined; and the invisible church, which are ACTUAL "Christians", those who have placed their faith and trust exclusively in the finished work of Christ, the wheat, the sheep or the "Holy Remnant", "True Israel".


Interesting observation! I used to think that there was not a single Christian on the face of the Earth for 1,000 years of the dark ages. Then I read Foxes Book of Martyrs and it provides evidence that God preserved a few that call upon his name down through the ages.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Johannes_1965 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:58 am

For lack of time I don't quote your recent texts but reply shortly from my Catholic point of view:
- I don't see the "Middle Ages" (500-1500) at all as dark ages. They have been a period of propagation and deepening of faith, of true holiness and a Christian civilization. The failure of Christians nowadays is much bigger in my eyes. You see history through glasses of Protestantism.
- The Church is one and has visible human elements as well as invisible divine elements. If there's an invisible Church it's the Church in purgatory and heaven, consisting of persons that have accomplished their pilgrimage on earth.
In the one visible Church on earth there's always wheat and chaff growing together, they will be only separated in eternal life and at the Last Judgement, not by our human thinking or judging.
- For the devil being released I don't see the necessity of Christians together with the Holy Spirit disappearing on earth. It's rather a question of majorities, of over all development. The devil is set free by a large apostasy and floods of sin. I expect Christians on earth to await and welcome Christ's coming in glory in the midst of the reign of Satan through the Antichrist. That's what Rev 20,7-15 is talking about.
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby natman » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:32 pm

Johannes_1965 wrote:For the devil being released I don't see the necessity of Christians together with the Holy Spirit disappearing on earth. It's rather a question of majorities, of over all development. The devil is set free by a large apostasy and floods of sin. I expect Christians on earth to await and welcome Christ's coming in glory in the midst of the reign of Satan through the Antichrist. That's what Rev 20,7-15 is talking about.


I do not get that impression from reading Revelation 20-7-15.

I do not see any mention of "a large apostasy and floods of sin". Rather, "When the thousand years are over" (literally "thousands of years"), Satan is unbound. From the description, it sounds like he "immediately" traverses the Earth in order to build an army for himself. However, before he has a chance to attack, (based on Rev 20:3, "
After that, he must be set free for a short time."), he and his armies are rustled together and thrown into the lake of burning sulfer, Hell.

Then comes the Judgement, the Resurrection of the dead and the quickening of the living.

This all appears to happen very quickly, perhaps instantaneously.

As for "The Antichrist", there is no mention of "The Antichrist" in Revelation. However, John does tell us who "The Antichrist" is in 1 John 2, 1 John 4 and 2 John 1. It is not a "single" person, but a class of people who have been with us since the advent of Christ and who are present to this day.

1 John 2:18-19
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son."

2 John 4:3
"Every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist".
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Re: Millennialism vs Amillennialism

Postby Johannes_1965 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:27 pm

Nathan, Thank you for your answer. What do you mean by the "quickening of the living"? Their change or transformation according to 1Cor 15,51-52?

A short time in the Bible is something quite relative. Jesus says himself he is coming soon or quickly and we are still waiting for his Second Coming. The short time of Satan (also mentioned in Rev 12,12) is even much shorter than that.
When I look at Rev 20, I read it together with many other passages in the New Testament talking about the Second Coming of Christ for the final judgement. Among these 2Thess 2:
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." (2Thess 2,4-5)

I see in this "man of lawlessness, the son of destruction"a single person whom I call "the Antichrist" and who acts and ends as follows: "Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved." (2 Thess 2,8-10)

I don't see this time or person to have come already (it's not Obama!) and in so far the devil is not yet set free. I just see a strong development pointing in that direction.

So I agree with your statements about the Antichrist/many Antichrists in the letters of John:
2 John 4:3
"Every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist".

Greetings,
Johannes
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