Calvinism Refuted

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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby ezduzit » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:03 am

Johannes_1965 wrote:There is the practical experience of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslim and Agnostics who are better Christians, leading a better life, than baptized, born again Christians.
"God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Rom 2.6-11)
So yes, there's the righteousness of gentiles who don't know God but do good more than Jews who have the Law of Moses and more than Christians who have the grace of Christ!


Salvation is grace plus nothing

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

IMHO many who will go to hell walk thru the blood of Christ , thinking their good works will earn them salvation
Ez
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby jochanaan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:21 pm

ezduzit wrote:...Salvation is grace plus nothing...IMHO many who will go to hell walk thru the blood of Christ , thinking their good works will earn them salvation
Ez
This is true. But there is great confusion in the body of Christ about good works. The Biblical truth, preached most clearly in Paul's and James' letters, is that salvation by faith and good deeds are two facets of the same thing. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

And to the question at hand, to say that "God hath before ordained..." is not to say we have no choice. But God is great enough to work even through our refusals to create good results! Praise His Name! Amen. :D
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:41 pm

ezduzit wrote:
Johannes_1965 wrote:There is the practical experience of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslim and Agnostics who are better Christians, leading a better life, than baptized, born again Christians.
"God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Rom 2.6-11)
So yes, there's the righteousness of gentiles who don't know God but do good more than Jews who have the Law of Moses and more than Christians who have the grace of Christ!


Salvation is grace plus nothing

Ez

I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:40 am

Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby ezduzit » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Ramblinman wrote:Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.


I don`t think you can read a "lighter torment" into these verses :?
Ez

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby Petros » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Bearing in mind none of us [I THINK] has been there, and bearing in mind that we do NOT have detailed credible accounts, still one might respond pointing to the vision og Hell - source unknown - the seer saw souls in the lake of fire, noses just above the suurface. They told him, thanks to prayers, they have it easy - they are standin g on the shoulders of other standingv on the shoulders of ... so they can get the relief of having eyes and noses above the lake level.

I am inclined myself to figure hell is hell and hreaven heaven and leave gradations to earthly institutions - but we really do not know.

Yet.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby Johannes_1965 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:56 am

ezduzit wrote:Salvation is grace plus nothing
Ez

bn2bnude wrote:I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)


I think Jesus said salvation is keeping the 10 commandments (Luke 10,24-28 and Mat 19,16-20).

But then the "plus nothing" is wrong. Salvation is grace and obedience, grace and doing good, grace and keeping the commandments, grace and free response to grace.

Grace alone can guide you also to hell, because it's the buried talent, entrusted "money" without fruit:
"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents." (Mat 25,24-28)
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:28 am

Johannes_1965 wrote:
ezduzit wrote:Salvation is grace plus nothing
Ez

bn2bnude wrote:I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)


I think Jesus said salvation is keeping the 10 commandments (Luke 10,24-28 and Mat 19,16-20).

But then the "plus nothing" is wrong. Salvation is grace and obedience, grace and doing good, grace and keeping the commandments, grace and free response to grace.


I would agree that obedience is the natural response to Christ. Here is the issue I have with what you say.

Without Christ, grace and salvation take on a very different meaning.

First, I would like to say, I've found the standard definition of "grace" somewhat incomplete and, until recently, didn't really have a better definition.

If you ask anyone in church, the definition of grace seems to boil down to "unmerited favor". Some years ago, I was reading a book that mentioned that grace was so much more but didn't really define it. Andrew Farley did go further to define it and I understand a little more.
Grace is the system that the Holy Spirit uses to counsel and teach us on a daily basis. Grace is in place, whether or not we've sinned recently. We worry that an absence of law will result in a lifestyle that is out of control. This concern is natural. But it contradicts what the Scriptures say about the effects of grace. Grace isn't just a treatment for sin; it's actually the cure for sin.
-- Andrew Farley "The Naked Gospel" (Chapt. 13)
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby jochanaan » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:30 am

If saving faith does not lead us to do good things for our brothers, neighbors and even enemies, is it really saving faith? :?:
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby Johannes_1965 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:18 pm

bn2bnude wrote: Here is the issue I have with what you say.

Without Christ, grace and salvation take on a very different meaning....

This is in fact an issue, as I don't see a fundamental difference in meaning. Salvation means everlasting life in the presence of God and grace is the help God gives us on the way of our earthly pilgrimage.

With Christ and the Holy Spirit we have everything God wanted to give us, (himself and his gifts); without knowing Christ or his Church God can still lead us to everlasting life on the way of the Old Testament through repentance, obedience and love. This is universal and easy to understand without a sophisticated definition of grace.

In my thinking, grace for a Christian is the indwelling Holy Spirit, his gifts and effects in us, whereas grace for a non Christian is the knowledge of conscience and good will moved by God through Christ in a more hidden and unconscious way.
" ...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men-- the testimony given in its proper time." (1Tim 2,3-6)

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"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby prairieboy » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:26 pm

jochanaan wrote:If saving faith does not lead us to do good things for our brothers, neighbors and even enemies, is it really saving faith? :?:


What is faith? Is it simply to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? What is belief in Jesus? Here are two definitions;

Mark 16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The works are not what saves us, but if we have true faith there will be works.
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby christian84 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:52 pm

Calvinism proclaims the perseverance of the saints while Arminianism proclaims salvation conditional .
Perseverance of the Saints refers to the concept that a person who is chosen by God to persevere in faith and never will deny Christ and will not turn away from Him again.
Salvation is conditional viewpoint that says that a believer in Christ could be based on free will , to deny Christ and thus lose salvation .

Therefore, this dispute between Calvinism and Arminianism , which of the two views is correct?
It is interesting to note that the diversity of the Body of Christ , there are all sorts of views that combine both Calvinism and Arminianism .
There Calvinists convinced the 5 key points , just as there Arminian convinced yet there are people who believe in the 3-point Calvinist and two aminianiste .
Many believers are somewhere in the middle , combining the two points of view .
Finally, our view is that both systems fail in their desire to explain neexplicabilul .
Human beings are unable to fully understand such a concept.
Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all .
Yes , men are called upon to make a decision to put sincere faith in Christ for personal salvation .
These two things seem to be contradictory to us , but to God they make sense in total.
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:33 pm

christian84 wrote:Calvinism proclaims the perseverance of the saints while Arminianism proclaims salvation conditional .
Perseverance of the Saints refers to the concept that a person who is chosen by God to persevere in faith and never will deny Christ and will not turn away from Him again.
Salvation is conditional viewpoint that says that a believer in Christ could be based on free will , to deny Christ and thus lose salvation .

One source I found some time back claims that both Calvin and Arminius were not all that different in this point. I have real issues with many of the "main points" or the so called TULIP of Calvinism. I will say, however, that perseverance of the saints is probably the one I have the least issue with. I will stipulate, however, that it is as it reads from Calvin, not, however, as most who espouse "Eternal Security" or "Once Saved Always Saved" positions claim it does.

christian84 wrote:Therefore, this dispute between Calvinism and Arminianism , which of the two views is correct?
It is interesting to note that the diversity of the Body of Christ , there are all sorts of views that combine both Calvinism and Arminianism .
There Calvinists convinced the 5 key points , just as there Arminian convinced yet there are people who believe in the 3-point Calvinist and two aminianiste .
Many believers are somewhere in the middle , combining the two points of view .
Finally, our view is that both systems fail in their desire to explain neexplicabilul .
Human beings are unable to fully understand such a concept.
Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all .
Yes , men are called upon to make a decision to put sincere faith in Christ for personal salvation .
These two things seem to be contradictory to us , but to God they make sense in total.

Here are some thoughts on this.....
  • I strongly suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. My issues with either view is it is hard to set the sort of line in the sand based upon scripture that either side has without ignoring some other portion of scripture that contradicts it.
  • I question your stance on God's sovereignty, at least what I read your stance as.
  • I am also uncomfortable with a hard stance on "personal salvation".
I find a lot of tension (nearly contradiction?) when trying to scripturally support some of these views.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:36 pm

ezduzit wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.


I don`t think you can read a "lighter torment" into these verses :?
Ez

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Other Bible verses speak of degrees of punishment in Hell. I was not referring to the two you mention.
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Re: Calvinism Refuted

Postby jochanaan » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:00 pm

Sometimes I wonder if John Calvin would even recognize today's "Calvinism"! :shock:
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