Calvinism Refuted

[ezduzit]

There is the practical experience of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslim and Agnostics who are better Christians, leading a better life, than baptized, born again Christians.
"God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Rom 2.6-11)
So yes, there's the righteousness of gentiles who don't know God but do good more than Jews who have the Law of Moses and more than Christians who have the grace of Christ!

Salvation is grace plus nothing

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

IMHO many who will go to hell walk thru the blood of Christ , thinking their good works will earn them salvation
Ez

[jochanaan]

...Salvation is grace plus nothing...IMHO many who will go to hell walk thru the blood of Christ , thinking their good works will earn them salvation
Ez

This is true. But there is great confusion in the body of Christ about good works. The Biblical truth, preached most clearly in Paul's and James' letters, is that salvation by faith and good deeds are two facets of the same thing. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

And to the question at hand, to say that "God hath before ordained..." is not to say we have no choice. But God is great enough to work even through our refusals to create good results! Praise His Name! Amen.

[bn2bnude]

There is the practical experience of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslim and Agnostics who are better Christians, leading a better life, than baptized, born again Christians.
"God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Rom 2.6-11)
So yes, there's the righteousness of gentiles who don't know God but do good more than Jews who have the Law of Moses and more than Christians who have the grace of Christ!

Salvation is grace plus nothing

Ez

I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)

[Ramblinman]

Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.

[ezduzit]

Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.

I don`t think you can read a "lighter torment" into these verses
Ez

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Petros]

Bearing in mind none of us [I THINK] has been there, and bearing in mind that we do NOT have detailed credible accounts, still one might respond pointing to the vision og Hell - source unknown - the seer saw souls in the lake of fire, noses just above the suurface. They told him, thanks to prayers, they have it easy - they are standin g on the shoulders of other standingv on the shoulders of ... so they can get the relief of having eyes and noses above the lake level.

I am inclined myself to figure hell is hell and hreaven heaven and leave gradations to earthly institutions - but we really do not know.

Yet.

[Johannes_1965]

Salvation is grace plus nothing
Ez

I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)

I think Jesus said salvation is keeping the 10 commandments (Luke 10,24-28 and Mat 19,16-20).

But then the "plus nothing" is wrong. Salvation is grace and obedience, grace and doing good, grace and keeping the commandments, grace and free response to grace.

Grace alone can guide you also to hell, because it's the buried talent, entrusted "money" without fruit:
"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents." (Mat 25,24-28)

[bn2bnude]

Salvation is grace plus nothing
Ez

I think Paul said it was Christ plus nothing. (Colossians 1:24-29)

I think Jesus said salvation is keeping the 10 commandments (Luke 10,24-28 and Mat 19,16-20).

But then the "plus nothing" is wrong. Salvation is grace and obedience, grace and doing good, grace and keeping the commandments, grace and free response to grace.

I would agree that obedience is the natural response to Christ. Here is the issue I have with what you say.

Without Christ, grace and salvation take on a very different meaning.

First, I would like to say, I've found the standard definition of "grace" somewhat incomplete and, until recently, didn't really have a better definition.

If you ask anyone in church, the definition of grace seems to boil down to "unmerited favor". Some years ago, I was reading a book that mentioned that grace was so much more but didn't really define it. Andrew Farley did go further to define it and I understand a little more.

Grace is the system that the Holy Spirit uses to counsel and teach us on a daily basis. Grace is in place, whether or not we've sinned recently. We worry that an absence of law will result in a lifestyle that is out of control. This concern is natural. But it contradicts what the Scriptures say about the effects of grace. Grace isn't just a treatment for sin; it's actually the cure for sin.
-- Andrew Farley "The Naked Gospel" (Chapt. 13)

[jochanaan]

If saving faith does not lead us to do good things for our brothers, neighbors and even enemies, is it really saving faith?

[Johannes_1965]

Here is the issue I have with what you say.

Without Christ, grace and salvation take on a very different meaning....

This is in fact an issue, as I don't see a fundamental difference in meaning. Salvation means everlasting life in the presence of God and grace is the help God gives us on the way of our earthly pilgrimage.

With Christ and the Holy Spirit we have everything God wanted to give us, (himself and his gifts); without knowing Christ or his Church God can still lead us to everlasting life on the way of the Old Testament through repentance, obedience and love. This is universal and easy to understand without a sophisticated definition of grace.

In my thinking, grace for a Christian is the indwelling Holy Spirit, his gifts and effects in us, whereas grace for a non Christian is the knowledge of conscience and good will moved by God through Christ in a more hidden and unconscious way.
" ...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men-- the testimony given in its proper time." (1Tim 2,3-6)

Johannes

[prairieboy]

If saving faith does not lead us to do good things for our brothers, neighbors and even enemies, is it really saving faith?

What is faith? Is it simply to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? What is belief in Jesus? Here are two definitions;

Mark 16
¹⁵And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
¹⁶He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
¹⁷And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
¹⁸They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14
¹¹Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
¹²Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The works are not what saves us, but if we have true faith there will be works.

[christian84]

Calvinism proclaims the perseverance of the saints while Arminianism proclaims salvation conditional .
Perseverance of the Saints refers to the concept that a person who is chosen by God to persevere in faith and never will deny Christ and will not turn away from Him again.
Salvation is conditional viewpoint that says that a believer in Christ could be based on free will , to deny Christ and thus lose salvation .

Therefore, this dispute between Calvinism and Arminianism , which of the two views is correct?
It is interesting to note that the diversity of the Body of Christ , there are all sorts of views that combine both Calvinism and Arminianism .
There Calvinists convinced the 5 key points , just as there Arminian convinced yet there are people who believe in the 3-point Calvinist and two aminianiste .
Many believers are somewhere in the middle , combining the two points of view .
Finally, our view is that both systems fail in their desire to explain neexplicabilul .
Human beings are unable to fully understand such a concept.
Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all .
Yes , men are called upon to make a decision to put sincere faith in Christ for personal salvation .
These two things seem to be contradictory to us , but to God they make sense in total.

[bn2bnude]

Calvinism proclaims the perseverance of the saints while Arminianism proclaims salvation conditional .
Perseverance of the Saints refers to the concept that a person who is chosen by God to persevere in faith and never will deny Christ and will not turn away from Him again.
Salvation is conditional viewpoint that says that a believer in Christ could be based on free will , to deny Christ and thus lose salvation .

One source I found some time back claims that both Calvin and Arminius were not all that different in this point. I have real issues with many of the "main points" or the so called TULIP of Calvinism. I will say, however, that perseverance of the saints is probably the one I have the least issue with. I will stipulate, however, that it is as it reads from Calvin, not, however, as most who espouse "Eternal Security" or "Once Saved Always Saved" positions claim it does.

Therefore, this dispute between Calvinism and Arminianism , which of the two views is correct?
It is interesting to note that the diversity of the Body of Christ , there are all sorts of views that combine both Calvinism and Arminianism .
There Calvinists convinced the 5 key points , just as there Arminian convinced yet there are people who believe in the 3-point Calvinist and two aminianiste .
Many believers are somewhere in the middle , combining the two points of view .
Finally, our view is that both systems fail in their desire to explain neexplicabilul .
Human beings are unable to fully understand such a concept.
Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all .
Yes , men are called upon to make a decision to put sincere faith in Christ for personal salvation .
These two things seem to be contradictory to us , but to God they make sense in total.

Here are some thoughts on this.....

• I strongly suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle. My issues with either view is it is hard to set the sort of line in the sand based upon scripture that either side has without ignoring some other portion of scripture that contradicts it.
• I question your stance on God's sovereignty, at least what I read your stance as.
• I am also uncomfortable with a hard stance on "personal salvation".

I find a lot of tension (nearly contradiction?) when trying to scripturally support some of these views.

[Ramblinman]

Those who have some prevenient grace in their lives may find that their torment in hell is lighter because of the outworking of that grace, which has begun the work of cleansing and preparing the soul for salvation (even though it does not attain the goal of salvation). It is clear that the reward in heaven varies according to the extent that we do not hinder the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the punishment of the damned varies according to the state of their depravity, even though all who do not know Christ are damned and though their common lot is hell, their specific fate will vary.

I don`t think you can read a "lighter torment" into these verses
Ez

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Other Bible verses speak of degrees of punishment in Hell. I was not referring to the two you mention.

[jochanaan]

Sometimes I wonder if John Calvin would even recognize today's "Calvinism"!