Israel or Jew

Ask the question you always wanted to ask, and were afraid to. There is no dumb question. Be courageous, for here you will find people ready to talk.<P>All Villagers may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Israel or Jew

Postby MoNatureMan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:41 am

If you hear people preaching or talking about the 'end times' you constantly hear them speaking about the Jew. When the Bible talks about Israel, they say the Jews.

The Jewish people are a very important part of the Bible and of Israel. However there are 12 tribes not one (the Jew). Even when the 12 tribes split into 2 kingdoms, the tribe of
Levi
was the tribe of Priests. The Jews can not serve in the Temple.

I have heard recently that the country of Israel is searching the globe and bringing in people from the 'lost tribes'.

So back to my original thought. Am I missing something, or are so many 'Bible teachers' missing an important part of Biblical fact.

In Him
Ron :cross:
User avatar
MoNatureMan
Native Resident
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: Missouri - South Central

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:14 pm

The "ten lost tribes" were by no means all lost. When the northern tribes seceded under Jeroboam, many of them went down to Judah, to keep doing the true worship in the Temple in Jerusalem. Not even the Assyrians who destroyed the Northern Kingdom were able to destroy all its folk. Anna, who prophesied about Jesus at His circumcision, was of the tribe of Asher. And the 144,000 in Revelation are definitely Israelites of all tribes. So even without God "raising sons of Abraham from stones," it's possible, even likely, that 12,000 from each tribe are alive now and ready to bear witness of Jesus/Yeshua.
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby natman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:00 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:So back to my original thought. Am I missing something, or are so many 'Bible teachers' missing an important part of Biblical fact.


Ron,

Unlike many, I do not think that you are missing something. There are several definitions to the word "Israel" in Scripture.

1. Jacob - Renamed "Israel" by God.
2. Those who are born of the direct blood line of Jacob.
3. The northern kingdom of the divided Hebrew nations of Cannan which was captured by Babylon and never re-established.
4. All those who have ever or will ever place their trust and faith in God and His promised Messiah, Christ Jesus, the "Remnant", according to the Apostle Paul in Romans 9, Romans 11, Galatians 3.

The current manifestation of a nation calling itself "Israel" is not mentioned in Scripture.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
User avatar
natman
Mayor (Site Admin)
 
Posts: 7300
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:07 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:.....I have heard recently that the country of Israel is searching the globe and bringing in people from the 'lost tribes'. ....
Ron:
Got any sources/links on that story. I think that could be quite interesting. Especially since the remnants of the "Samaritan Jews" have been identified by DNA markers as having Israelite ancestry and even the family of the Samaritan Jewish High Priest as having the DNA marker of descent via the male line of the Kohanim or Levitical priestly line. And we all know how the Jews felt about the Samaritans!

As to the existence of and preservation of the "Lost Tribes of Israel" we have the testimony through the Prophet Amos.
In Chapter 9, Amos wrote: 8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

So the testamony of Amos as to God's decree for the fate of the House of Israel is that it would be dispersed among the nations of the world, but that God would preserve them and not lose track of them. But this is prophesied of Israel not Judah which is only part of Israel.

It is this viewpoint that prompted my thoughts and questions about if the Jewish nation is seeking Israelites, are they going to be looking for DNA markers on a large scale?
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:49 am

Several years ago, Christine Amanpour from CNN did a series of reports from the three sides of the end-times debates called "God's Warriors".

This page has a few clips.

Most Christians seem to think the Left Behind story is the only way things will occur. What you find out is Muslims and Jews also have significant "end-times" scenarios.

In Jesus' time, the Jews believed that the messiah would be the conquering warrior, bringing the rule of Rome to it's knees. They've been looking for him for nearly 3000 years.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:34 am

bn2bnude wrote:Several years ago, Christine Amanpour from CNN did a series of reports from the three sides of the end-times debates called "God's Warriors".

This page has a few clips.......
That CNN site may have some clips, however they refuse to show them to me. I suspect that some cookie I have blocked at some time or other is the problem. CNN seems to wish to pollute my computer with a plethora of cookies and i have probably at one time or another blocked one of those. Unfortunately CNN does not see fit (chooses to for their own reasons ?) to identify the cookies that they want to set by putting their own name on them. I subsequently went back and removed the blockage on the only cookie with a CNN identifier on it and it still would not play the video. This is not the only site that has wanted to put tracking cookies etc. on my computer and do so surreptitiously.

My mommy always told me not to accept cookies from strangers.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:22 am

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:Several years ago, Christine Amanpour from CNN did a series of reports from the three sides of the end-times debates called "God's Warriors".

This page has a few clips.......
That CNN site may have some clips, however they refuse to show them to me. I suspect that some cookie I have blocked at some time or other is the problem. CNN seems to wish to pollute my computer with a plethora of cookies and i have probably at one time or another blocked one of those. Unfortunately CNN does not see fit (chooses to for their own reasons ?) to identify the cookies that they want to set by putting their own name on them. I subsequently went back and removed the blockage on the only cookie with a CNN identifier on it and it still would not play the video. This is not the only site that has wanted to put tracking cookies etc. on my computer and do so surreptitiously.

My mommy always told me not to accept cookies from strangers.



I'm sorry that is the case... I can't control that. I have to use Chrome browser because I refuse to load Flash (Adobe) on my machine and Chrome plays flash without loading it on.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby MoNatureMan » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:53 pm

bn2bnude
Most Christians seem to think the Left Behind story is the only way things will occur. What you find out is Muslims and Jews also have significant "end-times" scenarios.

I think many Christians question the 'Left Behind' scenario. Among others there are those that don't believe (or entirely trust in) the 'Pre-Trib Rapture'. I am concerned that many American Christians, have not searched Scripture and look to a 'Pre-Trib Rapture' as a way to escape coming trouble.

Muslim and Jewish end times are a totally different subject.
Muslim are not serving the same God that we serve. Pardon my bluntness but, I believe their book is more satanically or man 'inspired(?)', then God inspired.
The 12 tribes (including the Jews) hold the earlier books of the Bible (Old Testament) as their Holy Scripture. And yes they (those that have not turned to Christ) are still looking for Christ to come for the 1st time. Indications are many of them will turn to Christ when they see the man-of-sin claiming to be god, in the rebuilt temple.

My very short version of a complex response.

In Him
Ron :cross:
User avatar
MoNatureMan
Native Resident
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: Missouri - South Central

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:27 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:bn2bnude
Most Christians seem to think the Left Behind story is the only way things will occur. What you find out is Muslims and Jews also have significant "end-times" scenarios.

I think many Christians question the 'Left Behind' scenario. Among others there are those that don't believe (or entirely trust in) the 'Pre-Trib Rapture'. I am concerned that many American Christians, have not searched Scripture and look to a 'Pre-Trib Rapture' as a way to escape coming trouble.

Muslim and Jewish end times are a totally different subject.
Muslim are not serving the same God that we serve. Pardon my bluntness but, I believe their book is more satanically or man 'inspired(?)', then God inspired.
The 12 tribes (including the Jews) hold the earlier books of the Bible (Old Testament) as their Holy Scripture. And yes they (those that have not turned to Christ) are still looking for Christ to come for the 1st time. Indications are many of them will turn to Christ when they see the man-of-sin claiming to be god, in the rebuilt temple.

My very short version of a complex response.

In Him
Ron :cross:


Here is the summary of the "God's Warriors" series.
  1. Many Christians although not all, believe that when the Dome on the Mount is cleared of the Mosque, that will allow the rapture to occur. As a result, some churches in America are funding illegal settlements in the Palestine.
  2. Many Jews (the orthodox/conservative) believe that the Messiah will come when Israel has acquired all the land promised to Abraham.
  3. If memory serves me right, many Muslims believe that they will claim the world with some sort of apocalyptic jihad.
Essentially all three have similar designs on the same plot of land.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:34 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:......
-- Muslim are not serving the same God that we serve. ......
-- I believe their book is more satanically or man 'inspired(?)', then God inspired.


Not particularly disagreeing with you but rather disagreeing in principle with the Muslims: From what some have personally told me,
-- The Muslims do believe that they are worshipping the same god, i.e. The God of Abraham, albeit they think they are doing a better more accurate and compliant job of that than we Christians or the Jews are.
-- They do regard the Old testament as a holy book and accurate, except they believe that the Jews have corrupted a lot of the story, They think it is a slander on:
-- -- Lot to claim that he offered his daughters to the mob to be raped
-- -- The patriarch Judah that he had sex with his daughter-in-law, Tamar by accident because he thought he was having sex with a prostitute.
-- -- King David to say that he committed adultery with Basheeba and then murdered Uriah to cover it up.
I seems that it is part of their doctrine that every prophet of God was 100% sinless from birth onward and these sins of these men and the like are all Jewish corruptions. Of course their idea that all prophets were sinless includes Muhammad thereby putting him on the same plane with Jesus.

So I am much inclined to go along with your position, but it really offends the Muslims to tell them that they worship a counterfeit of the God of Abraham and that their primary holy book is at least partly Satanically inspired or a human fable.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:02 am

I have said, and will keep saying, that the "Pre-Trib" theory is not only wrong but dangerous. Aside from the fact that it has no support in Jesus' or the Apostles' teachings, what if it becomes clear that we are in the Tribulation and no Rapture has happened? Many who believed in an event sequence taught by supposed leaders will lose faith, will they not?

(Note that I have said nothing against our being "caught up in the air" if we are alive when Jesus comes again. There are enough references to such an event from the least-impeachable source, Jesus Himself, to convince the most dedicated skeptic if s/he will only look. Where I differ with PT folk is in the timing.)
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby natman » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:04 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
MoNatureMan wrote:......
-- Muslim are not serving the same God that we serve. ......
-- I believe their book is more satanically or man 'inspired(?)', then God inspired.


Not particularly disagreeing with you but rather disagreeing in principle with the Muslims: From what some have personally told me,
-- The Muslims do believe that they are worshipping the same god, i.e. The God of Abraham, albeit they think they are doing a better more accurate and compliant job of that than we Christians or the Jews are.
-- They do regard the Old testament as a holy book and accurate, except they believe that the Jews have corrupted a lot of the story, They think it is a slander on:
-- -- Lot to claim that he offered his daughters to the mob to be raped
-- -- The patriarch Judah that he had sex with his daughter-in-law, Tamar by accident because he thought he was having sex with a prostitute.
-- -- King David to say that he committed adultery with Basheeba and then murdered Uriah to cover it up.
I seems that it is part of their doctrine that every prophet of God was 100% sinless from birth onward and these sins of these men and the like are all Jewish corruptions. Of course their idea that all prophets were sinless includes Muhammad thereby putting him on the same plane with Jesus.

So I am much inclined to go along with your position, but it really offends the Muslims to tell them that they worship a counterfeit of the God of Abraham and that their primary holy book is at least partly Satanically inspired or a human fable.


The problem is that Muslims, in general, have not investigated the origins of the god, Allah. Allah is the warrior god of the moon, and supposedly, the last surviving god of a pantheon of about 360 Pagan gods. This is where they claim their "monotheism"; not just "one god", but "one SUPREME god". He is "supreme" in that he was able to rout all of the other gods.

As such, Allah is NOT the same God of Abraham unless they are counting some of the "gods" that Abraham's family built idols to before God came to him. (Josh 24:2 "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor...")
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
User avatar
natman
Mayor (Site Admin)
 
Posts: 7300
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby MoNatureMan » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:25 pm

jochanaan

I have said, and will keep saying, that the "Pre-Trib" theory is not only wrong but dangerous. Aside from the fact that it has no support in Jesus' or the Apostles' teachings, what if it becomes clear that we are in the Tribulation and no Rapture has happened? Many who believed in an event sequence taught by supposed leaders will lose faith, will they not?

(Note that I have said nothing against our being "caught up in the air" if we are alive when Jesus comes again. There are enough references to such an event from the least-impeachable source, Jesus Himself, to convince the most dedicated skeptic if s/he will only look. Where I differ with PT folk is in the timing.)


I am in agreement with you. So many just take what is handed out from the pulpit and don't even think or look it up their self. In my studies, I find Pre-Trib Rapture as an unclear possibility, not fact. I have even asked pastors that teach only PTR to show it to me in Scripture. I told them, that I don't see it there. None have taken me up on it. Non-pastors that I have asked about PTR in Scripture say that they don't know, but hope it is true.

In Him
Ron :cross:
User avatar
MoNatureMan
Native Resident
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: Missouri - South Central

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby MoNatureMan » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:21 pm

bare_truth
-- The Muslims do believe that they are worshipping the same god, i.e. The God of Abraham, albeit they think they are doing a better more accurate and compliant job of that than we Christians or the Jews are.
-- They do regard the Old testament as a holy book and accurate, except they believe that the Jews have corrupted a lot of the story, They think it is a slander on:
-- -- Lot to claim that he offered his daughters to the mob to be raped
-- -- The patriarch Judah that he had sex with his daughter-in-law, Tamar by accident because he thought he was having sex with a prostitute.
-- -- King David to say that he committed adultery with Basheeba and then murdered Uriah to cover it up.
I seems that it is part of their doctrine that every prophet of God was 100% sinless from birth onward and these sins of these men and the like are all Jewish corruptions. Of course their idea that all prophets were sinless includes Muhammad thereby putting him on the same plane with Jesus.
So I am much inclined to go along with your position, but it really offends the Muslims to tell them that they worship a counterfeit of the God of Abraham and that their primary holy book is at least partly Satanically inspired or a human fable.


I understand that the muslims consider themselves the true blood line of Abraham.
Jesus spoke to the Jewish religious leaders of His day saying.
Mt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Lu 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The very first temptation of man (and the sin of satan) was to be like (or as) God. Any religion that attempts to raise man to be god or attempts to lower God from what He is, is of the devil. That would include any belief that Jesus is a created being. The Muslim faith states that Jesus is a created being as was Adam. There are other groups that try to lower Jesus to being a created being (some claim the brother of Satan) including Morman and Jehovah Witness. So let me reword - any religious belief that attempts to raise man to become a god or that attempts to lower God from who He is of the devil.

But there, we must remember that the Gospel is an offense to many. Our job is to present the truth of the Gospel. All have sinned and are incapable of attaining a reward when we die. It is only through the perfect life of God on earth, His death and payment that we may have life everlasting.

In Him
Ron :cross:
User avatar
MoNatureMan
Native Resident
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: Missouri - South Central

Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:01 am

My mother made ometlets [it was the only egg dish I could eat]. They wrre nothing like this:



Nor were they like this:



It does not pay to assume that all who fit the definition of Muslim - nor all who have used the name Christian - are worshipping the same entity, nor that even if they are their understandings of God / Allah [which linguistically is just a well established Semitic term for "the God"] are compatible. Whether or not Muhammad's Allah links to a prior moon god, whether or not the Jews' IHVH [that is another essay] ties to an earlier sky god as I have heard suggested, is irrelevant. WalMart Easter is NOT the Passover whatever the origins and history.

It is a well taken point, not original with me, that it is quite possible that Daud who believes he is a Muslim and Dovidl who knows he is a Jew and Dave who wonders if he is really a Presbyterian may be listening to the same God, while Daud and Samir are sending up prayers in markedly different directions from the same mosque, as are Dave and Rob two pews away.

This of course has nothing to do with the normative theologies. Ultimately the relationship between believer and God operates without reference to theology, as I breathe without consulting the chemistry text that tries to explain respiration.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5434
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Next

Return to Unanswered questions about Christianity

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests