Israel or Jew

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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:12 am

Petros wrote:It does not pay to assume that all who fit the definition of Muslim - nor all who have used the name Christian - are worshipping the same entity, nor that even if they are their understandings of God / Allah [which linguistically is just a well established Semitic term for "the God"] are compatible. Whether or not Muhammad's Allah links to a prior moon god, whether or not the Jews' IHVH [that is another essay] ties to an earlier sky god as I have heard suggested, is irrelevant. WalMart Easter is NOT the Passover whatever the origins and history.

It is a well taken point, not original with me, that it is quite possible that Daud who believes he is a Muslim and Dovidl who knows he is a Jew and Dave who wonders if he is really a Presbyterian may be listening to the same God, while Daud and Samir are sending up prayers in markedly different directions from the same mosque, as are Dave and Rob two pews away.

This of course has nothing to do with the normative theologies. Ultimately the relationship between believer and God operates without reference to theology, as I breathe without consulting the chemistry text that tries to explain respiration.


Thank you for echoing my thoughts much more eloquently than I would have.

I know that I have a differing view of God than many on here.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:32 am

Petros,
I believe that you have fundamentally shifted the topic from the matter of comparing mass religious movements to individuals. Individuals are far safer but mass movements tend to shift toward a lower (not necessarily lowest) common denominator. If we compare the Muslim religion to Judiasm to Christianity, and stick to the written word in each case (i.e. the official theology) there is a progression. The Muslim religion advocates military violence toward unbelievers. with only a begrudging tolerance of "people of the book" (Jew's and Christians) and even then it is quite disrespectful and virulant toward the Jews. and places special tax, when it can, upon either and treats them poorly in actual practice. And all the foregoing is often overshadowed by the nominally religious advocates of various "Holy Wars" who convince their followers that they will be doing God a service, not to mention the plunder. I would argue that:
-- only in the Muslim religion is warfare officially enshrined as a standard practice.
-- In the Jewish religion there is a history of officially sanctioned wars in exceptional cases
-- In Christianity there is no sanction of human warfare although there is sanction of warfare against Satan and his angels on the spiritual level and in the last days warfare by angels against sinful mankind.

But I see no official sanction for Christians to Go to war or be militant or impose conversion upon the unwilling. How each of these religions regard the one they call the God of Abraham and what they believe to be his nature is at the root of the conflict between them as mass movments. Individuals are another matter. It is my perception that of these three Christianity has the greatest focus on the individual.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby MoNatureMan » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:50 pm

Petros
It does not pay to assume that all who fit the definition of Muslim - nor all who have used the name Christian - are worshipping the same entity, nor that even if they are their understandings of God / Allah [which linguistically is just a well established Semitic term for "the God"] are compatible. Whether or not Muhammad's Allah links to a prior moon god, whether or not the Jews' IHVH [that is another essay] ties to an earlier sky god as I have heard suggested, is irrelevant. WalMart Easter is NOT the Passover whatever the origins and history.

It is a well taken point, not original with me, that it is quite possible that Daud who believes he is a Muslim and Dovidl who knows he is a Jew and Dave who wonders if he is really a Presbyterian may be listening to the same God, while Daud and Samir are sending up prayers in markedly different directions from the same mosque, as are Dave and Rob two pews away.

All of that makes no difference in eternity.
What is the difference if a person is a Muslim, or a Jew or of a Christian denomination that has changed the Gospel to be a bunch of fables.
Any person that is trusting in their religion or their works (lack of bad or good) is not going to heaven. It is only by have a correct relationship with Jesus Christ and what He did for us, that we can get to Heaven and not Hell.
How can we be so blind to not see, that it is Satan, who has given us many religions. Often times he has corrupted Christian denominations. So I say again - Any religion that is leading people away from a true relationship with Jesus Christ is being influenced by or of the devil.

This of course has nothing to do with the normative theologies. Ultimately the relationship between believer and God operates without reference to theology, as I breathe without consulting the chemistry text that tries to explain respiration.

Faith in Jesus Christ is theological. His preexistence from eternity is theological. His life on earth and who He is theological. His sacrificial death is theological. Man not being saved by works is theological. Our relationship with Him is personal but has a theological basis.

In Him
Ron :cross:



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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:14 pm

bn2bnude wrote:I know that I have a differing view of God than many on here.


Is there a factual basis for such an assertion or are you just speculating?

Would you care to share who or what you think God is?
Until you do, I have no idea who or what you worship.
How is it you know what I believe about God?
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:11 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I know that I have a differing view of God than many on here.


Is there a factual basis for such an assertion or are you just speculating?

Would you care to share who or what you think God is?


First, let me say, I ascribe to the early creeds.

On the other hand, I have a view of God that doesn't fit into most of the more "popular" denominations. It tends to be anabaptist.
Ramblinman wrote:Until you do, I have no idea who or what you worship.
How is it you know what I believe about God?


I only know of what you believe by what you say here as I don't know you personally. Right off, I don't know if we differ or not but since I used the word "many" rather than a more exclusive term, I can say with confidence that I differ with some.


Note too, that I am not criticizing anyone for their particular view of a God who fits within a "Christian" orthodoxy. That, however, includes the (Eastern) Orthodox, Catholic, Reformed, etc. Why? Because I could wake up tomorrow and find that God shows me how wrong I am or for that matter, have my current beliefs confirmed.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:17 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:Several years ago, Christine Amanpour from CNN did a series of reports from the three sides of the end-times debates called "God's Warriors".

This page has a few clips.......
That CNN site may have some clips, however they refuse to show them to me. I suspect that some cookie I have blocked at some time or other is the problem. CNN seems to wish to pollute my computer with a plethora of cookies and i have probably at one time or another blocked one of those. Unfortunately CNN does not see fit (chooses to for their own reasons ?) to identify the cookies that they want to set by putting their own name on them. I subsequently went back and removed the blockage on the only cookie with a CNN identifier on it and it still would not play the video. This is not the only site that has wanted to put tracking cookies etc. on my computer and do so surreptitiously.

My mommy always told me not to accept cookies from strangers.



I found the original shows on YouTube...

"God's Jewish Warriors", "God's Muslim Warriors" and "God's Christian Warriors". The quality is a little poor (not terribly) but it's all there.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:51 am

Bare Truth -

Snipping only this from your contribution, which would take more timer than I have on hand tonight to treat fully:
" It is my perception that of these three Christianity has the greatest focus on the individual. "

I would say that AS generalization this thesis can be defended. The Hebraic covenants are with a people [though adoption into the people is possible, so it is not simnply genetic. Much of Islam [do not know enough about sects and close heresies to speak more definitely] operates as a corporation or a country. Whereas it seems that the gospel relates individual to God [though some subsets of Christianity have chosen a model more like the Jewish or the Muslim].

It would be interesting to see [I do not at present have the data] to what extent nonWestern Christianities base on the individual. I think it may be true for the Greek / Russiat etc Orthodox on the East West border. Whether it be true for egg Copts, Maronites, St Thomas Christians - can't say.

For the rest, all i can say now is - the way I am built, I can ONLY interact with individuals. Masses and classes [excepting 20 head or less at the U] I cannot penetrate.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:13 am

Ron - it is easier to type than your monicker - yours too I cannot now pingpong at you fully.

I will for now just do this:

Faith in Jesus Christ is theological. His preexistence from eternity is theological. His life on earth and who He is theological. His sacrificial death is theological. Man not being saved by works is theological. Our relationship with Him is personal but has a theological basis.

I know two basic definitions of theology. The older is the contemplation of / communication with God. The more common is the branch of science that investigates and formulate theories about the divine. Like other arms of the College of Arts and Sciences, there are many subdisciplines included, and of coulrsed many schools with often conflicting theoretical approaches.

It is hard for me to fit your manifesto into either definition. Let me just take "His sacrificial death is theological". It is of course true that orthodox Christian theologies discuss his death, construct theories to account for it, extrapolate from it, etc. But the theologians are, if you will, a by-product. Blood did not need Harvey to circulate, any more that Kipodunk needs me to write a grammar so the people can talk.

I would say, Christ came. Because he came, there are Christian theologians and Chrstian theologies. But people are not saved because there are theologians - there are theologians because people were saved. The majority of those who are Christians know very little of what theologians say - just as most people talking English know very little linguistic theory .

It is possible for someone to be saved reading a theological text - the Spirit can illumine ANYTHING. But what changed MY life had nothing to do with theology the science, and everuything to do with other sense theology, God standing on my doorstep telling me [hard] truth.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:17 am

bn2bnude - curiosity twists the tail of the cat who walks by himself -

Should we read literally Anabaptist, or just "closest to Anabaptist"?

And do you see Anabaptist || Church of God || Methodist || Russian Orthodox as indeed a different perception of God, or as disagreements on details of the covenant and their implications?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:17 am

Petros wrote:bn2bnude - curiosity twists the tail of the cat who walks by himself -

Should we read literally Anabaptist, or just "closest to Anabaptist"?

More likely "closer to anabaptist". I also like some of the places that the Eastern Orthodox has gone in how they read Scripture.... They caught Augustine who seemed to muddle the water quite a bit but missed Anselm and the repercussions he brought to the table.

Petros wrote:And do you see Anabaptist || Church of God || Methodist || Russian Orthodox as indeed a different perception of God, or as disagreements on details of the covenant and their implications?

I think there is a little of both. I think our perceptions of God affect and are affected by our covenants.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:28 am

Ah - a latent Whorfian.

It is rather an issue for the linguist.

Undoubtedly one's expectations based on structure [in language or theology] come in at some point in the processing - the old "they see what they expect to see / are looking for". Even I can cite instances where that principle has affected me.

The question comes, what does the preprocess subconscious [unconscious?] perceive? Can the hypnotist access color differences perceivedd but filtered out by the laznguage?

Which we have not tested.

In the meantime, I think it is undeniable that different ones have different relationships with God. I know his interaction with me is drastically different from Herself with God.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:37 pm

Reading some of the responses here, a thought crystallized in my mind: If we are to judge another's relationship with God--and despite what Jesus says in Matthew 7:1, we all do it, or at least make guesses--it is far more right not to judge by what s/he says about God, nor by which group (Christian or otherwise) s/he belongs to, but by the presence or absence of Spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace and its other aspects.
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:29 pm

jochanaan wrote:Reading some of the responses here, a thought crystallized in my mind: If we are to judge another's relationship with God--and despite what Jesus says in Matthew 7:1, we all do it, or at least make guesses--it is far more right not to judge by what s/he says about God, nor by which group (Christian or otherwise) s/he belongs to, but by the presence or absence of Spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace and its other aspects.


Well said. I was looking for a like button.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:13 pm

jochanaan wrote:Reading some of the responses here, a thought crystallized in my mind: If we are to judge another's relationship with God

But what sort of Judgement are we talking about here.

Consider the verses:
Romans 14:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Mat 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

1Corinthians 6:
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The problem here is that the same word is referenced in the concordance, namely:
2919 krino kree'-no
properly, to distinguish,
i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication,
to try,
condemn,
punish:--avenge,
conclude,
condemn,
damn,
decree,
determine,
esteem,
judge,
go to (sue at the) law,
ordain,
call in question,
sentence to,
think.

This is a problem in languages. The Greek word could be any of many possibilities when translated to English. I think it is reasonably clear that Matthew 7 and Romans 14 mean the sense of "condemn" Whereas, 1st Corinthians 6 is using the sense of "distinguish, try, conclude, esteem, judge, or think"

So in making comparisons among major religious movements, for the most part I think the 1st Corinthians 6 sense of the word "Judge" is the operative one.

Distinguishing how we ought to esteem various cults or movements or what we might conclude from their fruits is not inappropriate. And if what one concludes is unsavory that is not necessarily the condemnation of any particular individual. I believe that it is individuals which are the focus of Matthew 7 and Romans 14.

I think I can say that I have met some pretty decent people who nevertheless are in destructive, even depraved cults.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:14 am

Bare_Truth wrote:So in making comparisons among major religious movements, for the most part I think the 1st Corinthians 6 sense of the word "Judge" is the operative one.

Distinguishing how we ought to esteem various cults or movements or what we might conclude from their fruits is not inappropriate. And if what one concludes is unsavory that is not necessarily the condemnation of any particular individual. I believe that it is individuals which are the focus of Matthew 7 and Romans 14.

I think I can say that I have met some pretty decent people who nevertheless are in destructive, even depraved cults.


Assuming people read your whole post...

I think what jochanaan is trying to say is that the Bible pretty clearly states in at least two or 3 places that it isn't what you say your creeds are or what you say you believe or how many times you've read the Bible...

The first is Matthew 7:16 but let me quote the paragraph from "The Voice":
Matt 7:15-19 (The Voice) wrote:Along the way, watch out for false prophets. They will come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath that quaint and innocent wool, they are hungry wolves.But you will recognize them by their fruits. You don’t find sweet, delicious grapes growing on thorny bushes, do you? You don’t find delectable figs growing in the midst of prickly thistles.People and their lives are like trees. Good trees bear beautiful, tasty fruit, but bad trees bear ugly, bitter fruit.A good tree cannot bear ugly, bitter fruit; nor can a bad tree bear fruit that is beautiful and tasty.And what happens to the rotten trees? They are cut down. They are used for firewood.When a prophet comes to you and preaches this or that, look for his fruits: sweet or sour? rotten or ripe?


The other is John 13:35 which I will pull out of context but only because I think it can stand alone without altering it's meaning.

John 13:35 (The Voice) wrote:Everyone will know you as My followers if you demonstrate your love to others.


What these two passages tell me is regardless of a persons beliefs, creeds, etc. Ultimately it comes down to love, not to others judging... You can have a preacher or church member that believes all the right thing but if, as I see in my parents church, they are gossiping or backbiting, their fruits are pretty rotten. On the other hand, I also believe that you can have some pretty lousy beliefs or theology and love better than many who claim to be right.

You can argue that others are judging your love for others which is likely true.
Last edited by bn2bnude on Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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