Israel or Jew

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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:56 am

You've got it, bn2bnude. :)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:08 am

"Assuming people can read your whole post..."

I generally have little or no problem. Stylistically and attitudinally I suspect I sit about halfway between the two of you.

It would be interesting some day to have a "lecture-off" [as in "bake-off"] between me and Bare Truth. Let Jochanaan suggest a topic [carefully selected for interest] and turn each of us loose to produce an essay on the subject. My current impression - I let myself go to more elevated not to say poetic language, he does more notes and illustrations.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:32 am

bn2bnude wrote:..... Assuming people can read your whole post...
Were you referring to the clarity of what I wrote or the size? I will admit my formatting was a little bulky but I was trying for clarity. As to matters of size....
Total
Words
Authored
Words
Quoted
Words
Lines
With Text
My Post
333181 152 45
Your Post
446 190 256 33

Both clarity and precision need to be balanced against brevity. and it appears that you and I are reasonably matched in the first 3 categories in which you exceed me in total words by about 33% and in quoted words by about 68%. Only in number of lines do I exceed you by about 50%, and that is as a result of seeking a format that aids clarity (mostly from making the alternate translations of #2919, "Krino", into line items rather than a paragraph, a hold over from years writing engineering specifications.

bn2bnude wrote:I think what jochanaan is trying to say is that the Bible pretty clearly states in at least two or 3 places that it isn't what you say your creeds are or what you say you believe or how many times you've read the Bible...
I concur, however, while I agree with that matter, up to that point, it is my perception that the comparison that was being drawn in the previous posts where distinguishing between the groups as the issue, it was a comparison of the creeds inherent in the texts esteemed most highly by those groups and the fruits those creeds produced.

Johannan's post was an excellent cautionary not to unjustly apply to individuals some stereotype derived from the groups that they come from, and my point is that we must still be able to exercise discernment about the groups. Those are two different activities and keeping them in sharp focus when we are talking about one or the other is important.

It is both possible but challenging to remember to love your brother or sister while at the same time rejecting the system he or she comes from.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:36 am

Petros wrote: My current impression - I let myself go to more elevated not to say poetic language, he does more notes and illustrations.
Hmmmm, Linguistic analysis vs Engineering specification. which is the apple and which is the orange ????
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:00 am

"We have Abraham for our Father" suggests that some in those days interpreted God's covenant with the Hebrews so broadly that no individual was capable of being lost nor damned. Whether good or bad Jew, he under the covenant, that settles it (so they claimed).

And I have seen in our day some argue that faith reigns so supremely in God's plan of salvation that we can buy "fire insurance", torch our home and still collect from the Great Insurance Agent in the Sky.

The issue is not whether God has made covenants in the past with Israel nor with the Church in our time, but whether God can covenant with the individual as well. Hint: he does and it is not hard to demonstrate.

In both cases, there is a secondary issue: whether a covenant can be abrogated by us.
While I can only agree with the scripture that says that no one can snatch us from God's hand, can we walk away from God's hand?

I am from a school of thought that believes that however unlikely, it is within the realm of possibility. We profess a form of Arminianism, albeit Arminias might himself call us deviant from his precise doctrine.

While the topic is couched in terms of "Israel or Jew", most of us are probably actually asking, if salvation is mediated through the sacraments administered solely by the Church or whether salvation is mediated through a more linear and direct "God to Man" dialog.

I reject the notion that the Church is the mediator of salvation, but neither do I deny that orthodoxy would suffer if we had no accountability to other Christians for what we preach in Jesus name. Perhaps there is some middle ground between these notions.

Methinks that Peter was the vicar of Christ, to the extent that he obeyed the Lord. Of course we should remember Paul's rebuke of Peter's pandering to the Judaizer's. And methinks that we, all who call on Jesus name are also vicar's of Christ, to the extent that we obey the Lord.

I think that we do the Church a disservice when we try to impose Medieval notions of linear chain of command upon a web of the faithful.

I am not a Christian anarchist. I do believe in accountability to my brethren, but it is more of a web rather than a line.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:49 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:..... Assuming people can read your whole post...
Were you referring to the clarity of what I wrote or the size? I will admit my formatting was a little bulky but I was trying for clarity. As to matters of size....
Total
Words
Authored
Words
Quoted
Words
Lines
With Text
My Post
333181 152 45
Your Post
446 190 256 33

Both clarity and precision need to be balanced against brevity. and it appears that you and I are reasonably matched in the first 3 categories in which you exceed me in total words by about 33% and in quoted words by about 68%. Only in number of lines do I exceed you by about 50%, and that is as a result of seeking a format that aids clarity (mostly from making the alternate translations of #2919, "Krino", into line items rather than a paragraph, a hold over from years writing engineering specifications.


I think "can" was either a subconscious slip or typo on my part.... :oops:
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If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:11 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:It is both possible but challenging to remember to love your brother or sister while at the same time rejecting the system he or she comes from.


I think I would suggest an edit to the statement above...

It is both possible but challenging to remember to love your brother or sister.


I've all to often seen people act very unloving towards others in the same system as well.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:19 pm

"I've all to often seen people act very unloving towards others in the same system as well."

Too true.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:27 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
Petros wrote: My current impression - I let myself go to more elevated not to say poetic language, he does more notes and illustrations.
Hmmmm, Linguistic analysis vs Engineering specification. which is the apple and which is the orange ????


Both fruits can [warning - pun ahead] give the reader the pip. I was today reading a piece of philosophy from a source whose writing indicaztes his mind is in the same heneral subset as ours, and the alien jargon of course affects it.

I would suggest it is not so much specialization as factors unrelated to discipline; I have known lingfuists whose writings lean more to your engineering standard than my linguistic style, and I think my engineer brother IF he EVER chose to communicate would sound closer to me than to you.

But if we are to be fruit, let me be a passion fruit - coming from a very intriguing blossomm, and with a leathery penetration resistant shell containing a small dose of refreshing, nourishing, dfelicious rfather acit nectar and some noticeable seeds. I do NOT want to be a papaya on any account.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:05 am

Ramblinman, I'm with you, exactly. While accountability to our Christian brothers is well-founded in the Bible, the human-founded, quasi-military Roman Catholic or Orthodox system is not, having only the slenderest similarity to the Levitical priesthood. Especially, the dogma that the Church is the only dispenser of God's grace through the sacraments goes directly against some of Jesus' teachings. In prophecy and human experience (including my own), God dispenses His own grace, most powerfully through our Anointed Prophet, High Priest and King, Jesus of Nazareth. Praise His Name! Sing and dance to Him Who died and rose for us! Amen.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:19 am

It seems to me quite clear that the linkage is individual priestly king direct to THE priest king. Not, of course, denying that some are called to teach, exhort, comfort, heal, shepherd, often stationed inone of the hierarchies.

Note jochanaan it is not by any means ONLY Roman and Eastern churches [and their Anglican and Lutheran derivatives] that are into mediating hierarchy. One finds many a protestant pastor [and their flocks] who have views of their status as elect, anointed, privileged authorities less humble than many a priest I have met.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby natman » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:24 am

jochanaan wrote:Ramblinman, I'm with you, exactly. While accountability to our Christian brothers is well-founded in the Bible, the human-founded, quasi-military Roman Catholic or Orthodox system is not, having only the slenderest similarity to the Levitical priesthood. Especially, the dogma that the Church is the only dispenser of God's grace through the sacraments goes directly against some of Jesus' teachings. In prophecy and human experience (including my own), God dispenses His own grace, most powerfully through our Anointed Prophet, High Priest and King, Jesus of Nazareth. Praise His Name! Sing and dance to Him Who died and rose for us! Amen.
:dance:


I think that God uses multiple channels to dispense His grace. He uses the Earth, breaking down soil to make it fruitful, the seasons to bring rain and sun, His people to hold each other up in times of need, those who are NOT his people with whom we attain goods and services unavailable otherwise, His Son, Who's life and death on the cross graciously provides us with a path back to Him and His Holy Spirit Who gives us the desire and ability to see things through His eyes, even if currently dimly.

We need to also consider the functions of the positions listed in Scripture.

Prophets communicate God's Word to man.

Priests communicate man's desired to God.

Jesus was both. We are called to be "a royal priesthood". That means that, thanks to Jesus' finished work on the cross, we are able to communicate directly to God as if we were talking to our own "Father" or "Abba" (daddy), on our own behalf and on the behalf of others.

At the same time, we take on the roll of "prophet" whenever we speak the Truth of Scripture to others as we are communicating God's Word to man.
SON-cerely,
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:27 am

Petros: Noted, and I agree. The amazing arrogance of such folks!

Natman: Of course He uses multiple channels. He can use anything He has made to show His grace, and always does. Praise Him!
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:27 am

natman wrote:He uses the Earth, breaking down soil to make it fruitful, the seasons to bring rain and sun, His people to hold each other up in times of need, those who are NOT his people with whom we attain goods and services unavailable otherwise,


I hadn't thought of the weather cycles as grace before but it makes sense.
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If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:41 am

multiple channels:

A young but possibly salvageable pastor I knew proclaimed [as he had been taught] that each passage in the Bible has one and only oned meaning. Pah!

Like why make more than one kind of tree, fish, rock, more than one pair of humans with precisely 2 children?

WITH multiple channels a lot of us STILL do not get the message. How if there were but one?

One door - we are never told there is only one path to the door.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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