Israel or Jew

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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:24 am

Petros wrote:...... it is not by any means ONLY Roman and Eastern churches [and their Anglican and Lutheran derivatives] that are into mediating hierarchy. One finds many a protestant pastor [and their flocks] who have views of their status as elect, anointed, privileged authorities less humble than many a priest I have met.
Indeed, and let us not forget the Cults , (in the highly pejoritive sense of that term).

A primary characteristic of the abusive cults is usually a strict hierarchy and generally rigid obedience to the dictates of the learership that cannot be appealed and to which there is no jury, and no questioning of the interpretation of the scripture dictated by the leader, and arbitrary discipline is never to be questioned.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:20 am

Petros wrote:...... it is not by any means ONLY Roman and Eastern churches [and their Anglican and Lutheran derivatives] that are into mediating hierarchy. One finds many a protestant pastor [and their flocks] who have views of their status as elect, anointed, privileged authorities less humble than many a priest I have met.
Indeed, and let us not forget the Cults , (in the highly pejoritive sense of that term).

A primary characteristic of the abusive cults is usually a strict hierarchy and generally rigid obedience to the dictates of the learership that cannot be appealed and to which there is no jury, and no questioning of the interpretation of the scripture dictated by the leader, and arbitrary discipline is never to be questioned.

They leave no room to be Berean and search the scripture if these things be so, if the hierarchy said it, then surely it is so. There is no room to prove all things and hold fast that which is good. To even ask if or why an alternate understanding is more accurate will put one;s soul in danger of eternal damnation (or at least so the hierarchy says, and ones physical life social connections can be severed by the hierarchy on the least whim.

And getting back to the founding theme of this strip when MoNaturMan started it, does not all this have a root in lack of care in reading the scripture and seeing what it really does say? And why when someone has misread what it says, and having built a chunk of theology on that, do we stubbornly refuse to humbly accept correction back to what the word really does say, can we not reason together seeking truth rather than to puff our ego with a "win"? And rank unbiblical heresy excluded, why must we put out those we cannot convince or they convince us? Can we not in love merely suspend judgement until a resolution is achieved? Can we not be humble enough to accept that maybe it is we that are wrong? How many of us naturists have been put out of some congregation or position in that congregation because we have read what the bible really does and does not say about clothing? How dare we act in ways that the Pastor or deacon cannot or will not see that the Bible allows? How dare we point out that prophecies about Israel are not necessarily to the Jews only? How dare we keep holy a day commanded in the bible instead of substituting a roman or gnostic, or pagan day in its stead? How dare we abstain from a prictice that he hierarch says that we must do but is not found in scripture? How dare we ride in a car even if the bumpers are painted black rather than in a carriage? etc. etc. How dare we say that we can read the Bible and stand ready to take what it says over tradition, or point out that a particular denominational interpretation is flawed? And how dare we continually harangue our brother about some new truth we believe we see that he does not?

If two cannot walk together because they are not agreed it is not acceptable to throw stones at the other to keep him away nor impose our self on him until he succumbs to our view. To his own master he stands or falls. Can we not learn the moderation that our master showed when he, a "Jew", talked first with a woman, a Samaritan woman !!! and then to the whole Villiage of Samaritans. And indeed talked peacably and with compassion.

Here endeth my ramble through various thoughs for this day. They are offered for sharing, pick and choose and critique as you like.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:50 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
And getting back to the founding theme of this strip when MoNaturMan started it, does not all this have a root in lack of care in reading the scripture and seeing what it really does say? And why when someone has misread what it says, and having built a chunk of theology on that, do we stubbornly refuse to humbly accept correction back to what the word really does say, can we not reason together seeking truth rather than to puff our ego with a "win"? And rank unbiblical heresy excluded, why must we put out those we cannot convince or they convince us? Can we not in love merely suspend judgement until a resolution is achieved? Can we not be humble enough to accept that maybe it is we that are wrong? How many of us naturists have been put out of some congregation or position in that congregation because we have read what the bible really does and does not say about clothing? How dare we act in ways that the Pastor or deacon cannot or will not see that the Bible allows? How dare we point out that prophecies about Israel are not necessarily to the Jews only? How dare we keep holy a day commanded in the bible instead of substituting a roman or gnostic, or pagan day in its stead? How dare we abstain from a prictice that he hierarch says that we must do but is not found in scripture? How dare we ride in a car even if the bumpers are painted black rather than in a carriage? etc. etc. How dare we say that we can read the Bible and stand ready to take what it says over tradition, or point out that a particular denominational interpretation is flawed? And how dare we continually harangue our brother about some new truth we believe we see that he does not?

If two cannot walk together because they are not agreed it is not acceptable to throw stones at the other to keep him away nor impose our self on him until he succumbs to our view. To his own master he stands or falls. Can we not learn the moderation that our master showed when he, a "Jew", talked first with a woman, a Samaritan woman !!! and then to the whole Villiage of Samaritans. And indeed talked peacably and with compassion.

Here endeth my ramble through various thoughs for this day. They are offered for sharing, pick and choose and critique as you like.


Ah yes! This thing is way bigger than naturism, as dearly as I love to defend it, the stakes are much, much higher. Naturism just brings this nasty problem to a head.

My particular denomination teaches us unity in diversity in the non-essentials. There other congregations who have tossed out the Bible entirely and argue for all sorts of heresy. That is not even on the table for discussion here.

Rather, all of here know that many churches will cast someone out for disagreeing over the most trivial of things. We are so fond of preaching salvation by grace, but

So must I choose between the churches that are so cavalier about truth that righteousness consists of doing whatever you feel like doing today OR choose the churches that are shepherding, micromanaging and out-Phariseeing the Pharisees for tedious legalism going far beyond the commands of scripture?

In these forums, we encounter people who endure years of this abuse rather than break ties with the social network that keeps them inside the church. This is as bad as the cults. They too use mind games to keep you from escaping.

One of the benefits of CNVillage is that we are a city of refuge for people. Naturism is the catalyst, but their needs go deeper. The only thing I regret is that we are not as much a real world presence as I would like. But even though we are mostly online friends, the words of comfort and wisdom I have found here are real and have been a true help to me (and others).
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby natman » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:59 pm

Petros wrote:One door - we are never told there is only one path to the door.


I don't know about that. As I recall, the Master mentioning both door and path... "

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.



But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Mt 7:13-14) "

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
" (John 10:9)
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:28 am

narrow, yes, natman. But that describes, without quantifying. If we assume it to be a single path, it becomes very hard to determine what tha path might be - If we look [ignoring our own experience] just at what the scriptures tell us of David's path, Jeremiah's, Peter's, Paul's, it seems to me that these can be seen as one path only in that each, at one point, came to hear and follow the shepherd toward to fold. And I am not sure I can buy into that as distince from he gate.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:42 am

Bare Truth, all I can say is amen.

The only real response is prayer; so many will not speak to you or will not listen to you; one person I knew, on another subject, was heard to moan, what if I have been wrong and Petros right? That would be terrible!. And go right back to condemning me with at least outward completre assurance.

But God can, and incredibly does, get through even to some of the least penetrable.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jasenj1 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:06 pm

I'll just leave this here: http://www.gty.org/Blog/B140403

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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:54 pm

Ah, yes, friend MacArthur. An interesting blend of what I wholeheartedly endorse and what brings out my inner motorboat [but-but-but].

When he says, "
In short, anti-intellectualism is incompatible with genuine spiritual wisdom. Those who think of faith as the abandonment of reason cannot be truly discerning.", sure, fine, up to a point [though I hate despise and reject "intellectual" which along with "gay" is one of the most offensively misused words in English]. Nobody who has faith will abandon reason, and nobody who reasons can do so without faith [though some pin their faith in wrong premisesand build on sand.

But - "
Irrationality and discernment are polar opposites"? The nose, out of a myriad chemicals floating on the breeze, picks out the subtle chemical signatures of pine tree and blooming rose. This is not a process of reason - one focusses selectively, but rational thought is noit involved. The spirit, out of a myriad psychic traces, recognizes and homes in on the voice of God.

Are we to say that the illiterate, the uneducated, the one never exposed or very little exposed to scripture, the young, the afed, the weak of intellect cannot discern, cannot follow their master's voice?

Sure, scripture and reason are very important and useful. But teaching beginners, I give them simple mechanical tools for dissecting a language, techniques which would work, produce useful results. But that is paint by numbers, and the linguist, the artist, the discerning Christian need to grow out of the training wheel stage and operate above reason.

That, friend MacArthur, is NOT irrationality, which is perversion and subversion.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

Ramblinman, yes. We who find less than acceptance for our naked views from "traditional" churches find a refuge of similar minds here, with an intriguing variety of viewpoint and thought pattern. If I didn't have such in "the real world" and here, I don't know what I'd do. Fall back into textiled thinking? Not a chance! But maybe hide my naked thoughts under a cloak of "talking around" the subject... *sigh* Thank God for sites like this one!
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:32 am

jochanaan wrote:Ramblinman, yes. We who find less than acceptance for our naked views from "traditional" churches find a refuge of similar minds here, with an intriguing variety of viewpoint and thought pattern. If I didn't have such in "the real world" and here, I don't know what I'd do. Fall back into textiled thinking? Not a chance! But maybe hide my naked thoughts under a cloak of "talking around" the subject... *sigh* Thank God for sites like this one!


We are all born into a culture and we more or less accept it to get along, take a measure of pride in our folk ways, but some of it doesn't work very well.

A few hundred years ago peasant folk across Europe wore clothes much of the year because the weather doesn't allow nudity all the time, but groups of women would head off to the local river, perhaps the seaside to unashamedly bathe on a hot summer day or when the body became so grimy that an outdoor dip was essential to wash the skin. Men and their sons did likewise and once in a while men and women shared the water, but generally not. However, naked bathers didn't seem particularly perturbed by being seen bathing by the opposite sex. Our Continental forebears all did it at one time or another.
And this nude bathing seems to be a vestige of even older times when woodland peoples dispensed with clothes entirely during the summer, dancing, gathering berries and wild herbs, exploring the deep woods in rustic nudity to the wonder of more settled folk. Rural folk tend to hold onto old ways.

Somewhere along the way, certain elements of the Protestants decided that the body was indecent, a sexual temptation when bare. This was primarily in England, but the ban on outdoor nudity mostly applied to women and more so in urban areas less so in rural areas. On the Continent, rural women continued to bathe nude by the sea or nearby rivers as always.

By the time the FKK movement was born, Europe had become largely urbanized and nude bathing was out of favor, but this change was new, perhaps one need only look a generation back. One's parents or grandparents could remember the joys of summertime nudity.

America was initially settled largely by people from the British Isles. Not all were Puritans with all the emotional baggage about nudity, a goodly number of settlers were accustomed to bathing outdoors in summer, though segregated by sex. One of my ancestors settled in a section of Tennessee near "Pretty Creek". It was not an ugly creek by any means, but the "Pretty" in the name came from the fact that local women would bathe there, not entirely out of sight of passing men and boys. They attempted a measure of privacy, but were not unduly bothered by being seen in those days.

Over time, women were expected to bathe indoors in tubs, washbasins or whatever they had for bathing.
Men were still not stigmatized for swimming nude in farm ponds, rivers in rural areas. The cities imposed rules against nudity sooner than the rural places my family lived. The YMCA and some Midwestern schools carried on the rural tradition of male skinny dipping into urban swimming pools, but this too fell out of favor for several reasons.

The FKK movement spread to America in the 1930's on the backs of French and German immigrants and it seemed to really strike a chord with many families with deep roots in America.

America has reached a point where most of the population is urban or suburban and could not be easily bathe nude outdoors without being seen.
But American culture is much more resistant to adopting FKK, nudism, naturism than continental Europe a century ago. We have written pages about the cultural changes that led us to where we are: a badly misunderstood movement, opposed by many church groups on spurious reasons.

So this and a few other sites are a place of refuge, but we are also here to plan a comeback.
As I said before, if our struggle were merely about fighting for the right to go skinny dipping at the city pool one evening a month, it would hardly seem worth the bother. But as serious students of the Bible, we see this loathing of nudity as the tip of the iceberg.

The over-reliance on our leaders to explain the will of God to us instead of searching the scriptures daily...
Treating the present rules of our culture as if they had equal weight with scripture.
Ignorance of church history, even our own recent history when it comes to nudity and whole host of other things.
And most damning of all, the shunning of those who dare disagree. While we don't want to embrace sin, why have we refused to embrace sinners who want to return to the faith?
While we have different understandings of theology that lead to different houses of worship, can there not be a measure of mutual respect among churches?
Our problem with nudity is one of many. The Pharisees of our day profess Christ as savior, but live the same legalistic life that our Lord railed against.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:08 pm

In actuallity, as I understand it the concept of the physical body as evil / corrupt / sinful / etc. comes to us from gnosticism. which is an entirely heretical version of christianity resulting from merging Christianity with pagan Ideas from certain branches of paganism. From what I read the "Pure" in "Puritan" was about wanting to purify the church and not the pharisical striving for purity that most people think. Others feel free to critique this if you have better information.

As to the "puritans" being repressive, I have read that in fact they were not. Again please comment if any of you have more information.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jasenj1 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:16 pm

Ramblinman wrote:But American culture is much more resistant to adopting FKK, nudism, naturism than continental Europe a century ago. We have written pages about the cultural changes that led us to where we are: a badly misunderstood movement, opposed by many church groups on spurious reasons.

So this and a few other sites are a place of refuge, but we are also here to plan a comeback.
As I said before, if our struggle were merely about fighting for the right to go skinny dipping at the city pool one evening a month, it would hardly seem worth the bother. But as serious students of the Bible, we see this loathing of nudity as the tip of the iceberg.

The over-reliance on our leaders to explain the will of God to us instead of searching the scriptures daily...
Treating the present rules of our culture as if they had equal weight with scripture.
Ignorance of church history, even our own recent history when it comes to nudity and whole host of other things.



Yes. Yes. Yes! See the Dr. Mohler thread for a great chance for Christian's who do not share our culture's recent phobia of the body to speak to mainstream evangelical culture. Dr. Mohler has admitted the church's current point of view is broken. Naturists can point to ~1700s when bathing costumes became a way to flaunt wealth - the opposite of modesty! - as a place where this phobia took hold. And point to the early church tradition of nude baptism as evidence that this hypersexualized view of the body is non inherent or universal.

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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:45 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:In actuallity, as I understand it the concept of the physical body as evil / corrupt / sinful / etc. comes to us from gnosticism. which is an entirely heretical version of christianity resulting from merging Christianity with pagan Ideas from certain branches of paganism. From what I read the "Pure" in "Puritan" was about wanting to purify the church and not the pharisical striving for purity that most people think. Others feel free to critique this if you have better information.

As to the "puritans" being repressive, I have read that in fact they were not. Again please comment if any of you have more information.


I don't want to blame the Puritans for the entire problem. There is enough blame to go around, but there is clear evidence of their persecution of Quakers, Baptists, and Anabaptists. Some of the colonies were founded as a refuge from these tormenters. They did not start out that way back in England. As the Puritans gained power, their intolerance grew.

As for their legalism, their clothing and practices about Christmas...

But the Church of England was quite intolerant of Methodists and other English Dissenters.
Papists and Huguenots were in violent opposition for years. Yes, plenty of blame to go around.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby jochanaan » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:58 pm

Ramblinman wrote:... Some of the colonies were founded as a refuge from these tormenters...
...notably, Rhode Island. Roger Williams, the governor there, made Rhode Island a haven for dissidents of all kinds, including Baptists, Quakers, and Jews. The first Seventh Day Baptist church in America was founded in Newport, Rhode Island in 1671.
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Re: Israel or Jew

Postby Petros » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:11 pm

Roger Williams being an ancestor of mine and the first member of my family known to hazve done decent linguistic work.

However one rates the Puritans on the picky picky scale, as well as Rhoded Island large parts of Connecticut {including quite a few of my ancestors) were settled by people who needed to get out of Boston.
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