A question of love and hate

Ask the question you always wanted to ask, and were afraid to. There is no dumb question. Be courageous, for here you will find people ready to talk.<P>All Villagers may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

A question of love and hate

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:14 pm

So, here's something I've never thought a lot about until now. With the political campaigns going on a lot of people are throwing around some really strong opinions about the candidates. I saw an editorial (not written from a Christian perspective) that said we (I assume meaning everyone) have no right to "hate" a particular candidate. This was shared on Facebook by a Christian friend of mine, which prompted some discussion about whether we Christians are entitled to hate anyone.

I spent a better part of the morning doing some research on the topic. My traditional take on this issue is that we as Christians are called to love everyone, including our enemies. However, that's obviously easier said than done, and that prompts the question, what about enemies who are unrepentant? What about horrible people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao...?

So here are some verses I've found on this topic that I'm sifting through in my mind.

Matthew 5:43-48 wrote:43You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Luke 6:27-36 wrote:27But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

32“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.


Jude 1:22-23 wrote:22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.


Proverbs 8:13 wrote:The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.


Amos 5:15 wrote:Hate evil, and love good, and establish justice in the gate; it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.


Romans 12:9 wrote:Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.


Psalm 97:10 wrote:O you who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked.


Psalm 5:4-6 wrote:4For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.


Ecclesiastes 3:8 wrote:a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.


St. Augustine is quoted as saying the old "love the sinner, hate the sin" or vice versa. I know that's not found anywhere in the Bible, and to separate the sin from the sinner seems like Gnosticism to me. So how are we as Christians supposed to respond to wicked people? Can we hate them, or hate only what they do? Is there a point where they are so reprobate (see Romans 1:18-32) that we can hate them?

And, I guess implicit in this question is, if we are made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 2:26), are we to be like God in that as God hates evildoers (Psalm 5:5) we are as well?

And lastly (I know this is already an overloaded question but I think it's important), if God does hate evildoers (Psalm 5:5), then technically people like those of Westboro Baptist Church are "telling it as it is" by holding up "God hates gays" signs, right?

I'm hoping some of you wise, studied brothers in Christ will help me sift through this.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby jdb » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:24 pm

I hear Psalms 5:5... So I accepted the Lord when I was 8. I was without a doubt a sinner before that so if that is true how could a child ever be in a right relationship to the Lord??
And as a Believer I've done some sinful stuff too.

I believe that His hate is directed toward the sin of the sinner and finally being a just God with out recourse must distance the sinner from Himself. Until that He is longsuffering not wanting any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

I'm not sure that I can explain it, but I know I cant explain the love of God so maybe I am inept in explaining how God hates either. Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. Yes Jesus loves me, yes, Jesus loves me.

John
jdb
Resident
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:16 pm
Location: Natalia, Texas, SW of San Antonio on the way to Laredo

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby naturaldon » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:56 pm

It takes a lifetime of living for Christ to learn how to not hate our enemy, or any sinner, saved or unrepentant. Jesus said to be perfect even as God is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Most of us understand that to mean that perfection is our goal in life, ultimately attained when we step from this one into life in heaven (by the way, as a side note, if you know Christ as your Lord, your eternal life has already started!). I've got a sinful nature, personally, so I'm still trying to not hate, but I do, and I hate that I hate. But then again, Jesus has already forgiven me of that and is working (hard!) to change me.

Jesus left no hate-stone unturned when He commanded us to love, as you (Mav) have shown in Scripture. But loving them does not mean we have to compromise. We don't have to, and we shouldn't, and we better not. We should contend for the faith (Jude 3). But love defines how we will contend for it. We cannot hate and share the Gospel. Our love for others should compel us to tell them about Jesus. But when the Gospel is blatantly rejected and sin is embrace (by unrepentant sinners), we have to protect ourselves from the coming onslaught of apostasy and become mature enough to rescue those who are enticed or already ensnared by error/evil (not my words). That's not hating, that's being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove (Matthew 10:16).

We must keep ourselves in the love of God (Jude 21), who hates sin yet "so loved the world" (John 3:16). Paul writes implicitly in First Corinthians 5 that we can, indeed, keep company with unrepentant sinners. If we don't, "we would need to go out of the world" (v. 10). And loving these sinful ones, of whom I am 2nd-in-chief to Paul, is our Godly goal if we are to be God-like, too (after all, we are His image and His glory already, I Cor. 11:7).

But look at Jude 21 again, then 22-23: Keep yourself in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction, but on others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, HATING EVEN THE GARMENT DEFILED BY THE FLESH (emphasis added). What does that mean?

So can we hate? Yes? Should we hate? No. But we're human and we will hate at times, even when we don't want to and especially when we deny we hate. Does Jude tell us to have compassion (or love) on some and to hate everything about someone who is unrepentant, except perhaps their very soul?

Jude (and Peter, for that matter) had some harsh words for evil doers but comes up short saying that we should hate them completely. Maybe there are different types of hate? After all, there are different types of love: love for my wife, my Christian brothers, for mankind, for myself, for Jesus. Maybe we can hate, too, in different ways, short of hating the whole person, as I think Jude implies here.

This doesn't answer much - it's just part of the conversation and I'd like to hear what others have to say as well.

Another thought... I can love someone and still punish them (just ask my son). So loving someone does not necessarily mean that we have to be pacifistic (Jesus was not a pacifist - ask the money changers - but He loved them relentlessly). If a man comes to my door and asks for food, I will love him and feed him, physically and spiritually. If he turns violent and breaks in to steal that food, I will likely shoot him, in a loving way, of course.

I just hate that.
-Don
He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:30)
User avatar
naturaldon
Native Resident
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:03 am
Location: NW MO

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:58 pm

We here think about that a lot.

Recognize - look well, O wolves! - "love" does NOT imply "like".

Nor does it imply "applaud or accept the behavior." Turning the other cheek does not mean we do not try to turn the sklapper from his ways.

If Ignac O'Toole, World Dictator, is alternately pogromming and reprogramming Christians, I will not assassinate him. I might pour molasses in the engine of his juggernaut and I would confine him - humanely - unless and until he changed his ways.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5435
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Maverick » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:10 pm

naturaldon wrote:Jesus left no hate-stone unturned when He commanded us to love, as you (Mav) have shown in Scripture. But loving them does not mean we have to compromise. We don't have to, and we shouldn't, and we better not. We should contend for the faith (Jude 3). But love defines how we will contend for it. We cannot hate and share the Gospel. Our love for others should compel us to tell them about Jesus. But when the Gospel is blatantly rejected and sin is embrace (by unrepentant sinners), we have to protect ourselves from the coming onslaught of apostasy and become mature enough to rescue those who are enticed or already ensnared by error/evil (not my words). That's not hating, that's being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove (Matthew 10:16).


I think the part I italicized is what I'm struggling with. I don't hate non-believers, but I have a hard time not feeling hatred toward people who are so perverse and ungodly that they drag others down with them or do horrible things to others. I know people like Hitler are extreme examples. Planned Parenthood and those who encourage abortion (not necessarily people who get abortions, mind you) would be another example, possibly equally extreme. Or the Islamic State. Not simply lost people... but people that we might think are beyond salvation because they don't want to be saved (i.e. they love evil too much).

Great responses so far, please keep 'em coming. I'm feasting on this food for thought.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby jochanaan » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:13 pm

Do we not get most angry precisely at the ones we love? It is not hatred to point out deeds, words or thoughts we hate. And since God is our Father, and "We are all His children", we humans are all family. We may say, in moments of anger, "I hate you!" But what we feel is most often not anger but fear: fear for ourselves, fear for others lest their actions lead them into danger or difficulty, including the danger that they may miss God's love and grace...
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby naturaldon » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:29 am

Jochanaan wrote:
Do we not get most angry precisely at the ones we love? It is not hatred to point out deeds, words or thoughts we hate. And since God is our Father, and "We are all His children", we humans are all family. We may say, in moments of anger, "I hate you!" But what we feel is most often not anger but fear: fear for ourselves, fear for others lest their actions lead them into danger or difficulty, including the danger that they may miss God's love and grace...


To answer the question, yep, it seems that's the case most times. And I agree, we do fear and perhaps that is, indeed, a shade of anger or hate: our human emotion meshing with spirituality.
-Don
He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:30)
User avatar
naturaldon
Native Resident
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:03 am
Location: NW MO

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby New_Adventurer » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:27 pm

Offered without comment, from a church in Snohomish, Washington:
Attachments
DSC_0728A.jpg
User avatar
New_Adventurer
Native Resident
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Fremont, California

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby vycna » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:57 pm

Believers do not just know what godliness in love, and having godly compassion, will amount to, it is not what is generally thought of. Such knowledge is not automatic with coming to Christian faith. When we think we know what is needed, we no longer grow, and why should we then still be here? In actuality there is always more to learn, and this is true even in godly virtues, and we would benefit with looking with openness for what will be shown to us. Love and compassion, and other virtues of godliness, will have limitations where we will willing include others in, and these boundaries are to widen to be more inclusive. If they do not do that and if they are less inclusive, this would be with such going toward more ungodliness.
vycna
Native Resident
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:51 pm

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby jochanaan » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:49 pm

vycna wrote:Believers do not just know what godliness in love, and having godly compassion, will amount to, it is not what is generally thought of. Such knowledge is not automatic with coming to Christian faith. When we think we know what is needed, we no longer grow, and why should we then still be here? In actuality there is always more to learn, and this is true even in godly virtues, and we would benefit with looking with openness for what will be shown to us. Love and compassion, and other virtues of godliness, will have limitations where we will willing include others in, and these boundaries are to widen to be more inclusive. If they do not do that and if they are less inclusive, this would be with such going toward more ungodliness.
:like:
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Maverick » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:21 pm

I appreciate all the thoughts on this. It's something I'm still sifting through and I may never come to a definite conclusion, but I think based on what I've read in the Bible, from you here, and from other commentaries is that it is God's will for us to show grace and mercy to others, including our enemies/those who hate us. That does not mean condoning what the wicked do, but speaking the truth in love and standing up for what we believe in. To me it's a great mystery--a lot like predestination/free will--and we may never know the answer, but I am convinced that Christ calls on us "little Christs" to be light and salt in a dark and stale world, a world that has too much hate already, hate that we can combat with love.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:45 pm

To me it's a great mystery--a lot like predestination/free will-

In no way a put down but it is always a mystery to me that well-nigh everybody figures predestination and free will are opposed.

Right to the pursuit of happiness. I exercise that right daily. But pursuit does not guarantee catching.

I am free to want, to choose, to pursue, to stretch out my hand. And I do not know the outcome. But God built it into the plans for the world.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5435
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Maverick » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:39 am

Petros wrote:
To me it's a great mystery--a lot like predestination/free will-

In no way a put down but it is always a mystery to me that well-nigh everybody figures predestination and free will are opposed.

Right to the pursuit of happiness. I exercise that right daily. But pursuit does not guarantee catching.

I am free to want, to choose, to pursue, to stretch out my hand. And I do not know the outcome. But God built it into the plans for the world.


Based on my study, I think (and I could be completely wrong about this) that what seems like free will to us is predestination to God. Whether or not He determines which choices we will make, He knows the Alpha from the Omega. From His all-knowing perspective as the Creator, He knows how things will turn out as we make decisions, interact with other people who make decisions, are affected by other people's decisions, etc.

This may sound like something out of a sci-fi novel, but I wouldn't be surprised if we are to God as a computer simulation is to us. He sets the variables and presses play, although I believe He knows from the outset how the simulation will turn out before it's even finished. Maybe that's oversimplified. I guess that means I lean toward a Calvinist view of things but I definitely see verses in the Bible to support both Calvinism/predestination and Arminianism/free will.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Petros » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:31 am

I count myself Arminian.

The simulation analogy is at least close; I incline toward thinking this is not perhapd so much a simulation as a virtual reality where we immersed play our parts.

But yes - I would say we will, but he - not predicts, breing timeless but knows our wills and how thwy interact with his.

But I do not think he says: I will make Petros because I need another to be damned. Rather, I will make Petros; regrettably he chooses damnation.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5435
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: A question of love and hate

Postby Maverick » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:10 pm

Petros wrote:But I do not think he says: I will make Petros because I need another to be damned. Rather, I will make Petros; regrettably he chooses damnation.


I'm playing devil's advocate here, not trying to start an argument: What do you think of Romans 9?
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Next

Return to Unanswered questions about Christianity

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest