Another one on NC .. the KJV

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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:12 am

jay_p wrote:I agree... It bugs me that evangelical /conservatives seem to be shut down.. And I have trouble with the assertion that "most" Christians now reject the Bible and exclusivity of Christ.

I'll be honest with you, I can't fault Bill for locking the discussion down. And I wouldn't blame you as the reason for the lockdown.

Before I continue, let me be clear, with few exceptions, I will not criticize anyone's choice of Bible. Those exceptions would be a translation specifically to support a cult.

Here is one opinion of the best Bible translations for various purposes: https://redeeminggod.com/best-bible-translation/

In this post he states:
The best Bible translation will be the one that, when you are reading it, you forget you are reading “the Bible.” The one that, when you are reading it, you don’t have an urge to pull out a Bible Dictionary or put together an outline for your next sermon. The one that, when you are reading it, you forget to “look for the main point” and just enjoy the story, the poetry, or the letter which is being read.


All that said, why do I agree with the lockdown??? Whether or not the claims made, that the KJV is the ONLY inspired Bible, are true, I believe the claims to be divisive. I don't think the original poster looked at it this way but what is the effect?

First, it sends the message that those using the KJV are somehow more holy than those that do not.

Second, it often separates those who do and those who don't use that version.

Third, it can cause those who don't use the KJV to start to question their beliefs. This may not be a bad thing in general but it is for the wrong reasons.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:12 pm

bn2bnude wrote:
jay_p wrote:I agree... It bugs me that evangelical /conservatives seem to be shut down.. And I have trouble with the assertion that "most" Christians now reject the Bible and exclusivity of Christ.

I'll be honest with you, I can't fault Bill for locking the discussion down. And I wouldn't blame you as the reason for the lockdown.

Before I continue, let me be clear, with few exceptions, I will not criticize anyone's choice of Bible. Those exceptions would be a translation specifically to support a cult.

Here is one opinion of the best Bible translations for various purposes: https://redeeminggod.com/best-bible-translation/

In this post he states:
The best Bible translation will be the one that, when you are reading it, you forget you are reading “the Bible.” The one that, when you are reading it, you don’t have an urge to pull out a Bible Dictionary or put together an outline for your next sermon. The one that, when you are reading it, you forget to “look for the main point” and just enjoy the story, the poetry, or the letter which is being read.


All that said, why do I agree with the lockdown??? Whether or not the claims made, that the KJV is the ONLY inspired Bible, are true, I believe the claims to be divisive. I don't think the original poster looked at it this way but what is the effect?

First, it sends the message that those using the KJV are somehow more holy than those that do not.

Second, it often separates those who do and those who don't use that version.

Third, it can cause those who don't use the KJV to start to question their beliefs. This may not be a bad thing in general but it is for the wrong reasons.

At one time, I believed that the KJV was the only modern Bible that was faithful to the autographs.
That is not necessarily a divisive doctrine if true.
But Jesus warned us that his truth is indeed inherently divisive.
If we were to allow only those doctrines that are not controversial, we would condemn Jesus, the prophets and apostles to silence.

However, I would cheerfully criticize the view that the KJV is the only inspired Bible.
Why? Because that would deny the veracity of all the versions and partial translations of the Bible that preceded it, invalidating the efforts of Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Calvin, and even deny the veracity of the Apostles and prophets and deny the words of Jesus himself.

Now do the KJV-only Extremists contend that Jesus was inaccurate while he spoke here on Earth?
Are they asserting that the King James translators corrected Jesus' words to conform to the will of God?
Tha would indeed be a unique doctrine! And heretical to boot!!
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Petros » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:09 am

I am of course in an odd position thanks to my expulsion.

I would say ANYTHING is divisive - if the divisive make it so,

I can and will discuss anything with anyone - if anyone will DISCUSS. Exchange of data, exchange of views, some reasoned argument. Great.

But if the other pronounces and insists and will not discuss - I will leave, nothing here for me.

I would very happily discuss with any here the KJV issues. But I can't be harangued.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:30 am

Ramblinman wrote:Now do the KJV-only Extremists contend that Jesus was inaccurate while he spoke here on Earth?
Are they asserting that the King James translators corrected Jesus' words to conform to the will of God?
Tha would indeed be a unique doctrine! And heretical to boot!!


There are more than a small number of pages detailing what various KJV Only groups believe. I am not convinced it's a unified front. There is a page here that looks at some of the claims and responds.

His conclusion is interesting...
Like with anyone who expounds a conspiracy theory, it is usually fruitless to try to reason with the KJV Only crowd. One should seek to prod these brothers and sisters to a correct understanding with love and patience, realizing that most efforts will be spurned and may turn out in vain.


I'm adding to this post rather than start a new one... In reading this article on KJV Only, the author writes:
So, is there a conspiracy today? My answer may surprise the reader: yes, I believe there is. But the conspiracy has not produced these modern translations. Rather, I believe that there is a conspiracy to cause division among believers, to deflect our focus from the gospel to petty issues, to elevate an anti-intellectual spirit that does not honor the mind which God has created, and to uphold as the only Holy Bible a translation that, as lucid as it was in its day, four hundred years later makes the gospel seem antiquated and difficult to understand.2 It takes little thought to see who is behind such a conspiracy.
Last edited by bn2bnude on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:48 am

Ramblinman wrote:Now do the KJV-only Extremists contend that Jesus was inaccurate while he spoke here on Earth?
Are they asserting that the King James translators corrected Jesus' words to conform to the will of God?
That would indeed be a unique doctrine! And heretical to boot!!

While they may not be contending that the KJV Translators changed Jesus' words, they do claim that the source of the translation, Textus Receptus, is more correct. Textus Receptus is a 1500 era Latin translation of the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts they had at the time.

I keep thinking that it is likely important that we have none of the original manuscripts, just copies, translations of copies and translations of translations of copies...
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:57 am

It seems different approaches to "Christianity" and "Naturism" are embodied in the names of this group (Christian Naturist Village) and the other (Naturist Christians). In some languages, word order illustrates emphasis (please, linguists among us, correct me if that's a mis-statement).

The topic was locked ostensibly because it was divisive; but based on many other "contentious" discussions (especially over N-C's recent history), a major factor for shutting down a valid discussion in a valid forum heading is the absence of a tie-in to naturism. If some reference to nudity is not present, that poster is deemed off topic. This relegates Christianity on N-C to an under-class, a possible outcome being naturism set up as an idol.

It is also interesting to note that the matter of divisiveness depends upon whose ox is being gored. On the one hand, it is unacceptable to the "powers that be" on N-C to seek to lovingly clarify the issue of inspiration vs. translation because it is "divisive" rather than a godly attempt to sharpen iron. On the other hand it is apparently not divisive at all for said "powers" to repeatedly insist that most people believe the Bible to be errant.

Pot, meet kettle.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Maverick » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:35 pm

c.o. wrote:The topic was locked ostensibly because it was divisive; but based on many other "contentious" discussions (especially over N-C's recent history), a major factor for shutting down a valid discussion in a valid forum heading is the absence of a tie-in to naturism. If some reference to nudity is not present, that poster is deemed off topic. This relegates Christianity on N-C to an under-class, a possible outcome being naturism set up as an idol.


Never looked at it like that, but I can understand why you'd say that. I hope that's not the case with some of those over there.

c.o. wrote:It is also interesting to note that the matter of divisiveness depends upon whose ox is being gored. On the one hand, it is unacceptable to the "powers that be" on N-C to seek to lovingly clarify the issue of inspiration vs. translation because it is "divisive" rather than a godly attempt to sharpen iron. On the other hand it is apparently not divisive at all for said "powers" to repeatedly insist that most people believe the Bible to be errant.


I take issue with that hypocrisy, too, and is why I've left until there's some reform over there. (Oct. 31st would be a good date for reform! :mrgreen:)

I got on Facebook this morning and the first thing I saw was a Christian acting Pharisaical towards another Christian: arrogance, condescension, haughtiness... any other good words? The other was simply seeking clarification on the issue at hand but was instead belittled for "not understanding the Bible." Even if the first was right, I lose any respect I had for their argument based on their pride and find myself sympathizing with the other side.

I'm all for discussion and debate among Believers, but it should be done with love and humility. We can assert what we believe without stepping on someone else who disagrees. I think we do a pretty good job of that here in the Village. :)
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby naturaldon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:03 pm

About the issue(s) "over there," all I know for sure is that the Gospel was shared with them/him a while back. I hope someone reads it and comes to Jesus. :cross:
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:41 pm

c.o. wrote:.... On the other hand it is apparently not divisive at all for said "powers" to repeatedly insist that most people believe the Bible to be errant.

Pot, meet kettle.


I believe the Bible to be inerrant in its message, that is salvific, but I acknowledge that errors in translation or omissions of certain verses in some translations rob us of some of the nuances of meaning.

Nor do I believe that the Bible is always interpreted correctly by those who read it.
Some very errant minds make all sorts of claims about what it means.

If God had wanted to, he could have preserved the tongue of Adam and Eve (Hebrew?) and rained down millions of copies of the Bible written in stone in that language.
But if mankind had sinned, we would still have those who misinterpret it.

Jesus trusted the scriptures and so should we, but he warned us,
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
(John 5:39-40).
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:24 pm

Inerrancy has been a topic I've been interested in for some time, though I'm just now starting to read about it. One thing I've realized is that there can be absolutely no meaningful discussion about "which version is better" or something along those lines if two people can't agree on sola scriptura--there is no common ground to stand on with those who believe in continuous revelation. That ground must be established first.

One thing that many may not think is a blessing is the fact that we have multiple translations, which allows us to examine different interpretations, if you will, of the same texts, without needing to know Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Ramblinman wrote:Jesus trusted the scriptures and so should we, but he warned us,
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
(John 5:39-40).


Just playing (Christian) devil's advocate here ( :mrgreen: ), but what scriptures was Jesus referring to here? Likely just the Old Testament (Tanakh or Septuagint), but we probably read it to mean the whole Bible. Another example is 2 Timothy 3:16-17--what scripture was Paul referring to? He was in the process of writing the New Testament when he wrote this, and Timothy would probably have had only a copy of the Septuagint, if that.

In the words of a Kansas song, "Asking questions, learning all the time..." :)
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:25 am

Having dealt with languages since forever, being involved in translation a good few years, I of course have very specific views on the inerrancy issue. Which I will not detail here and now, but in time. It all hinges on the assumption that he who designed human language is a master usere of human language in communication with humans.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby jude700 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:02 am

Bertrand Russell is supposed to have said on his deathbed the reason he failed to become a Christian was that God failed to give enough evidence.

If God gives to too much evidence, He will take away our free will. Those insisting on sola scriptura fail to account for the fact that many fail to have the Scripture :argh: :duh: Even Martin Luther realized that if everyone interpreted Scripture for themselves, they would deem everyone else in error.

Are we scrapping barnacles, pruning trees, OR chopping them down?

Many have felt they are the worst deterrent to bringing others to the Faith. That includes myself. Let us pray that we may all be one :cross:
Last edited by jude700 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:10 am

I didn't comment about errancy (above) with a view to starting a debate. The comment intended to show that there are other issues which can be perceived as divisive, and if divisiveness is the plague a Web site founder seeks to avoid, perhaps even naturism should be a locked topic. After all, does not naturism offend some?

And indeed, God -- able to create a universe we still cannot fully fathom by speaking it into existence -- IS able to speak faultlessly. It's our fallenness that presents the obstacles, the scales on our eyes and our own stiff-neckedness. And it's the believer's new nature that can begin to overcome these. We are not yet perfect in our understanding, but of what use is fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ, and what use questions and discussion and biblical and apostolic guidance if we are to shut up about issues?

Those insisting on sola scriptura fail to account for the fact that many fail to have the Scripture

For which Scripture gives explanation. Attributes of God are present in nature (Rom 1:18-20, Ps 19:1-6, others). Those who have no Scripture are able to learn of God through creation. If they follow what light they have in nature, and seek God with all their hearts, He will be found by them (Dt 4:29, Jer 29:13, Ps 145:18, 1 Chron 28:9, 2 Chron 15:1-2, Acts 17:27).

Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly, Jude, so help me if i'm not. The sola scriptura argument has to do with foundational beliefs and what source we use to confirm them. I've never known one to legitimately contend that just a Bible is the way to salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith in the substitutionary life and death of Jesus. It is the Bible that has told this story from the beginning.

To suggest that God cannot save His people unless they have a Bible is to strip Him of His sovereign authority, power, love, mercy and grace. And i don't believe any of the Reformers have taught such. The Reformers' sola scriptura came at a time when Jesus no longer walked the earth, and the apostles had long since passed to glory. What we have is the all-sufficient Word they left, the foundation and source for truth.

Ramblinscout: Jesus warned the unbelieving religious elite at the time (and, thereby, others who were/are like-spirited) that their dependence on Scriptures for eternal life is misplaced, if they neglect the truth about Messiah as detailed in said Scriptures. Note the context of the John 5 passage quoted above, beginning at John 5:18 -- Jesus was addressing "the Jews [who] were seeking to kill Him, because He not only was breaking [their faulty understanding of] the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God." They misunderstood what Scripture they had, and refused to believe "the true light" (John 1:9).
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:43 am

jude700 wrote:Bertrand Russell is supposed to have said on his deathbed the reason he failed to become a Christian was that God failed to give enough evidence.

If God gives to much evidence, He will take away our free will.

Scripture begs to differ.

Who had more evidence than Lucifer and the angels that rebelled with him? All that evidence did not take away their will.

Who had better evidence than those who continually witnessed God in flesh? Countless miracles that they could not deny, entire villages miraculously healed, teaching as one having authority that only God has. Yet the religious elites and most of those who cried "Hosanna to the son of David" managed to have Him killed. Because of lack of sufficient evidence?

God has constantly been evident, and never taken away man's will. I don't know much about Mr. Russell, but people don't "fail" to become Christian. People choose not to. If Mr. Russell even acknowledged God (if the above statement is accurate), he had enough evidence to pursue further. God is his judge, but my suspicion is Mr. Russell's not believing had more to do with his choice not to rather than God being culpable for not providing enough evidence.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Maverick » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:24 pm

To elaborate on a great answer:

c.o. wrote: The sola scriptura argument has to do with foundational beliefs and what source we use to confirm them. I've never known one to legitimately contend that just a Bible is the way to salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith in the substitutionary life and death of Jesus. It is the Bible that has told this story from the beginning.

To suggest that God cannot save His people unless they have a Bible is to strip Him of His sovereign authority, power, love, mercy and grace. And i don't believe any of the Reformers have taught such. The Reformers' sola scriptura came at a time when Jesus no longer walked the earth, and the apostles had long since passed to glory. What we have is the all-sufficient Word they left, the foundation and source for truth.


Agreed! Sola scriptura also came about due to what was coming out of Rome; Catholicism at the time considered the words of the popes to be equivalent to Scripture, even when contradictory. Luther and others took a stand because they saw contradictions between what was written and what was spoken.

In the little research I've done so far, I will note that Luther considered Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation not to be on par with the other NT books. He may have thought less of Esther, too. I think later he lightened up a bit on Hebrews, James, and Jude, but he didn't feel that Revelation was divinely inspired.

jude700 wrote:Bertrand Russell is supposed to have said on his deathbed the reason he failed to become a Christian was that God failed to give enough evidence.


That reminds me of the John 6:30-31, when, after Jesus had fed the five thousand, they come to him the next day and ask for another sign. How much evidence would they have needed to believe?

What about Mark 8:11-13? The Pharisees ask Jesus for a sign, and he says no. I don't think they would have believed that he was who he said he was even if he did give a sign.

I don't think one can look anywhere without even remotely wondering whether there is a Creator. The clockwork precision of the universe, the instincts of animals, the inner workings of the human body... all these point to divine design. Order does not come out of chaos, as the Darwinists would have people believe.

"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 14:1a, ESV)
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