Another one on NC .. the KJV

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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby naturaldon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:51 pm

Petros wrote: It all hinges on the assumption that he who designed human language is a master usere of human language in communication with humans.

Petros, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, either here or a new strip.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby naturaldon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:53 pm

c.o. wrote:To suggest that God cannot save His people unless they have a Bible is to strip Him of His sovereign authority, power, love, mercy and grace.


I understand this statement in the whole context of the discussion here and I just want to add to our already great discussion (which, as duly noted, would be outlawed in other settings :? ). So...

Just want to say that God can save someone who does not have a Bible, but only by the Good News revealed in the Bible and proclaimed: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14, yeah, KJV)

It's been said, and I would gladly give credit if I knew who said it, that Christians might be the only Bible some people will ever read. If we're living our faith according to the Word and sharing the Good News of Jesus - that He is Lord (Acts 10:36), the Gospel preached/proclaimed/shared has the power to save (Romans 1:16).

Creation might (and does) give evidence of God, but only through Jesus can we be one with Him and His Son and the Spirit (John 17).
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:07 am

Don,

It is true that through the generations, millions of people did not have the printed word of God, but rather the spoken word of God from a priest, bishop or elder in the Church.

It is also true that for all its failings, the Church is God's primary means of providing interpretation of scripture.
Nature is also a witness on God's behalf.

The inner witness of the Holy Spirit is yet another witness.
If a corrupt bishop teaches heresy, the Holy Spirit may sound a warning in your heart to be wary.

Scribes in Old Testament times counted every jot and tittle of the Tanakh to make sure that it was a perfect copy of the original.
Any imperfect copies were discarded in caves, taking them out of circulation.

But copying mistakes were inevitable, particularly in the New Testament, which was not proof-read as rigorously as the Old Testament.

No Bible can be translated word-for-word.
Let's consider the King James Bible passage, "Suffer the children..."
At the time, sufferage meant "allow" or "permit".
But in modern English, it could be interpreted as "force children to come to me, to the extent that they suffer pain, if necessary".

Other times the translated word is correct, but may lack the nuance the original language was trying to convey.
The Aramaic word Jesus used "Abba" has been translated as "Father". While that is correct, it is more precise to translate it as "Daddy", a term of endearment.

And as I mentioned earlier, the KJV was re-released and edited several times.
The KJV is based upon many wonderful translations, but the language was plainer than KJV, not as poetic.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 am

naturaldon wrote:
c.o. wrote:To suggest that God cannot save His people unless they have a Bible is to strip Him of His sovereign authority, power, love, mercy and grace.


I understand this statement in the whole context of the discussion here and I just want to add to our already great discussion (which, as duly noted, would be outlawed in other settings :? ). So...

Just want to say that God can save someone who does not have a Bible, but only by the Good News revealed in the Bible and proclaimed: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14, yeah, KJV)

It's been said, and I would gladly give credit if I knew who said it, that Christians might be the only Bible some people will ever read. If we're living our faith according to the Word and sharing the Good News of Jesus - that He is Lord (Acts 10:36), the Gospel preached/proclaimed/shared has the power to save (Romans 1:16).

Creation might (and does) give evidence of God, but only through Jesus can we be one with Him and His Son and the Spirit (John 17).

I should have elaborated on my comment you cited, naturaldon. Not because i disagree with anything YOU wrote, but that my comment makes it sound as though Jesus may be LESS the way, less the truth and less the life.

But underlying my statement are passages such as John 6:37 ("All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me"); John 6:44, 45 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him...Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me"), and John 10:27-30 - "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

God saves people "from every tribe and tongue." Whether or not a Bible is involved in the drawing of humans to Himself, the true seeker (who may get his/her first clue from God's revelation in creation) will -- by some means of God -- eventually develop a heart of repentance, an understanding of the gospel, and a loving relationship to the Father through His Son. Peter, naming "Jesus Christ the Nazarene" in Acts 4:10 well said in 4:12, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved."
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:58 am

c.o. wrote:
naturaldon wrote:
c.o. wrote:To suggest that God cannot save His people unless they have a Bible is to strip Him of His sovereign authority, power, love, mercy and grace.


I understand this statement in the whole context of the discussion here and I just want to add to our already great discussion (which, as duly noted, would be outlawed in other settings :? ). So...

Just want to say that God can save someone who does not have a Bible, but only by the Good News revealed in the Bible and proclaimed: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14, yeah, KJV)

It's been said, and I would gladly give credit if I knew who said it, that Christians might be the only Bible some people will ever read. If we're living our faith according to the Word and sharing the Good News of Jesus - that He is Lord (Acts 10:36), the Gospel preached/proclaimed/shared has the power to save (Romans 1:16).

Creation might (and does) give evidence of God, but only through Jesus can we be one with Him and His Son and the Spirit (John 17).

I should have elaborated on my comment you cited, naturaldon. Not because i disagree with anything YOU wrote, but that my comment makes it sound as though Jesus may be LESS the way, less the truth and less the life.

But underlying my statement are passages such as John 6:37 ("All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me"); John 6:44, 45 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him...Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me"), and John 10:27-30 - "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

God saves people "from every tribe and tongue." Whether or not a Bible is involved in the drawing of humans to Himself, the true seeker (who may get his/her first clue from God's revelation in creation) will -- by some means of God -- eventually develop a heart of repentance, an understanding of the gospel, and a loving relationship to the Father through His Son. Peter, naming "Jesus Christ the Nazarene" in Acts 4:10 well said in 4:12, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved."


And let me add...

I had heard about people in the Muslim coming to Jesus through either visions or Jesus appearing to them. I was a bit skeptical until I met one (he sat behind me here)...

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:50 pm

bn2bnude wrote:And let me add...

I had heard about people in the Muslim coming to Jesus through either visions or Jesus appearing to them. I was a bit skeptical until I met one (he sat behind me here)...


I have also heard wonderful testimonies along the same lines, some firsthand, others from various missions to and with Muslims. PRAISE YOU, LORD! And thank you for the laborers in this harvest!
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby webmeister » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:08 pm

c.o. wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:And let me add...

I had heard about people in the Muslim coming to Jesus through either visions or Jesus appearing to them. I was a bit skeptical until I met one (he sat behind me here)...


I have also heard wonderful testimonies along the same lines, some firsthand, others from various missions to and with Muslims. PRAISE YOU, LORD! And thank you for the laborers in this harvest!

Wow, thanks for sharing that !
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:35 am

webmeister wrote:Wow, thanks for sharing that !


c.o. wrote:I have also heard wonderful testimonies along the same lines, some firsthand, others from various missions to and with Muslims. PRAISE YOU, LORD! And thank you for the laborers in this harvest!


I guess my point here is that, while we tend to think that without the Bible, the Gospel wouldn't go out, I think the Bible itself seems to suggest differently.

The people I know who are agnostic and atheist wouldn't touch the Bible but they do watch and listen to say and do. As a result, we may be the only Bible that others read. That means when you see infighting between the various churches about things that are trivial, it reflects poorly on Christ. When we are known for what we promote in the political arena than for Jesus, that is a problem. Jesus says that Christians should be known for their love for each other but in the world, we are known because we are anti-gay, anti-abortion, Republican, and the list goes on.

I'm not minimizing those who are unbelievers that come to faith through the scriptures or for that manner, any other way. As the video shows, Jesus makes himself known in many ways.

As I think about Epistles of Paul, James & John, I notice that none of them are to unbelievers. Nearly all are written to correct some sort of problem found in the Church. The letters to Galatia, Corinth and the book of James and Philemon are those that come to mind first. The one that I think may be an exception is Romans.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Petros » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:16 am

naturaldon wrote:
Petros wrote: It all hinges on the assumption that he who designed human language is a master usere of human language in communication with humans.

Petros, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, either here or a new strip.


Not the time today, I fear, but I will find some nails to put it on the door.

A lot of things in this to touch on had I the time and energy.

Without at all putting down the role of the scriptures, I will draw your attention to Revelation 14:6-7
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby jude700 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:18 am

Many of the questions regarding my post have been answered.

Check google or Bing re Bertrand Russellhttps://www.bing.com/search?q=Bertrand+Russell&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR

Jesus answered many questions and many wanted still more answers (proof) :butbut:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who ...

Quote by Stuart Chase: “For those who believe, no …
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/167757 ... lieve-no...

Stuart Chase — ‘For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.’

:butbut: :argh: :butbut:
God Bless.


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Man is a spiritual being, and so has the need to develop his spirit and his conscience.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby naturaldon » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:56 pm

c.o. wrote:I should have elaborated on my comment you cited, naturaldon. Not because i disagree with anything YOU wrote, but that my comment makes it sound as though Jesus may be LESS the way, less the truth and less the life.

Hey c.o., not to worry. I knew from whence you wrote and never thought the lesser. I appreciate your apologetic.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby natman » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Still recovering from Hurricane Harvey, I am coming to this discussion late.

Having dealt with the "Power that Be" on naturist-christians.org, I am not surprised in the least that the KJV Only thread got shut down... locked. The belief is that any discussion that MIGHT be "divisive" shall NOT be tolerated, and any discussion that supports Sola-Scriptura, (the Scriptures are to SOLE authority for Christian principles) must be IMMEDIATELY shutdown because his belief is that the Holy Spirit continues to make NEW revelation, even revelation which directly contradicts Scripture.

The Apostle Paul admonished the Bareans for testing everything he said against the Scriptures.
"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11

The principle of Sola-Scriptura does not indicate that the Scriptures are the ONLY means to salvation. It merely asserts that everything must be examined in light if Scripture and Scripture alone, rather than any traditions or works of mankind. However, Scripture points to the other "solas", Sola-Gratia (Grace alone), Sola-Fide (Faith alone) in Solus-Christo (in Christ alone) for Soli-Deo-Gloria (for the glory of God alone), all of which can be experienced in the absence of Scripture, through God's natural creation (again, according to Scripture itself).
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby jay_p » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Natman
I hope that the hurricane recovery is going well.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:03 pm

jay_p wrote:Natman
I hope that the hurricane recovery is going well.

Jay,
I hesitate to pray that the hurricane will recover, :shock:
but I am eager to join you in praying for Houston's recovery and Mayor Natman's home and garden paradise as well.
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Re: Another one on NC .. the KJV

Postby c.o. » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:46 pm

natman wrote:...Sola-Gratia (Grace alone), Sola-Fide (Faith alone) in Solus-Christo (in Christ alone) for Soli-Deo-Gloria (for the glory of God alone), all of which can be experienced in the absence of Scripture, through God's natural creation (again, according to Scripture itself).

Natman, please help me to understand.

If it is true that grace, faith, and Christ alone can be experienced through natural creation, why would God bother revealing Himself through prophets, revealing His righteousness, our incapacity for it and His grace through Torah; revealing Himself in the Word made flesh, revealing atonement, resurrection and eternal life through Jesus' work? Why would Jesus tell us to spread this message to all the world if the gospel is able to be completely experienced through creation?

If only natural creation is capable of revealing all of this to a suitable extent, Scripture and all that was involved in bringing it to us is redundant at best.
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