Questions about children in nude families

We hear a lot of talk about harming children nowadays. Doesn't exposing them to nudity in the home (and elsewhere) give them a warped outlook on life?<P>Only Native and Permanent Residents may post here.

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Questions about children in nude families

Postby SiteAdmin » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:24 pm

I received the following PM from You're kidding, right? She has not yet reached Gold Member status, but wants answers to family nudity questions, and asked me to post this statement in this forum on her behalf. I have also opened up this forum to her so she can dialog with you, because of her sincerety is seeking answers, and the way she has handled herself up to now. I will also open this forum to others who have posted introductions of themselves but not yet reached Gold Member status, if they also want to dialog with YKR about these questions.

You're kidding, right? wrote:Since I am new to this whole concept of Christian nudism, I’d like to ask a question. Please answer honestly. I am seeking to find the proper balance between these two concepts.

I have always been taught that nudity is for married couple only, and then in the privacy of their bedroom. But here I’m seeing people saying that it’s proper around children. This leads me to ask if anybody has had problems with children accepting this idea?

Jon-marc states that he was naked when the neighbor children would come over and not be seem to notice it, but what about your children? Were the visiting children ever allowed to be naked as well?

It seems that many of you have been divorced. Was the divorce due to your being a nudist? I do not need details, just a “Yes” or “No” will be fine, thank you.

For those of you that have married somebody with children, did they know you were a nudist before you were married? Have you had any problems with the children because of your being a nudist? Were you able to expose them to the nudist lifestyle? If so, what was their reaction?

Do you honestly believe that children raised as nudists will not be involved in porn or sexual activities before marriage? Personally I would think it would only encourage that, especially the sexual activities.

I have not changed my mind on this at all, but the ladies, especially Kiki, have made some very interesting points. As I have stated, I am just seeking information. I haven’t made up my mind as of yet.

Thank you.
Last edited by SiteAdmin on Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jon-Marc » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:11 am

I have never noticed that many young children have a problem with nudity, theirs or anyone else's. The neighbor children were never nude in my home, though. Sometimes they would spend the night, but they would wear something to bed where I wouldn't. Only those whose children have been or are being raised in a naturist home can say what effect it has on them. My two daughters were only two months and two years, ten months old when we separated.

My first wife and I divorced because of her adultery. My second wife and I divorced because she found that I wasn't perfect like she was. :roll: My second wife had two sons who were nearly grown, with the younger one being 16. One time when I was nude in the bedroom with the door open, she got very upset. "What if Darrin sees you?" she asked. My reply was, "Darrin likes girls and isn't interested in me." She went out of the room and closed the door. I had to always be dressed, and I had to always close the bathroom door, something I wasn't used to doing. I believe that she was actually afraid that my nudity would tramatize Darrin. :roll:
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Postby jochanaan » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:07 pm

YKR, I can only answer one aspect of your question: I was divorced before I embraced nudism. However, it's likely that her two children would have accepted nudism easily enough if I had already been a nudist when I married their mother. I don't know whether she might have; however, on several occasions she and I were naked with each other outside of the bedroom in non-sexual contexts--but not where anyone else could see us. Perhaps if I had been less confused about nudity--but I'll never know now. Too many missed opportunities there. :cry:

P.S. SiteAdmin, I assume she gave you permission to take her dialogue public... :?:
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Postby Strandloper » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:47 pm

Hi, Just Kidding –
you asked: “Do you honestly believe that children raised as nudists will not be involved in porn or sexual activities before marriage?”
I do believe there is a smaller likelihood of this happening.
My children (a boy and a girl, now aged respectively 23 and 19) were not raised as nudists, although I did expose them to nudity (my own and theirs).
However, when they reached puberty their mother encouraged body shame in them, and I strongly believe that this is where my son started to go wrong.
He is in a sexual relationship with a girl, and he does have an interest in porn.
It is primarily curiosity that leads people towards pornography, and people raised as naturists either lack this kind of curiosity or have it directed away from prurient interest in sexual activity.
My son’s affair was kept a secret from me for months by his mother. I was horrified when I finally learned the truth. I spoke to both my son and his girlfriend about it, but they both made non-committal responses. The girlfriend is a sweet young woman, and smiled very nicely, but had nothing to say.
When I raised it with my wife, she immediately said I had no leg to stand on because I had had sexual affairs before I married.
This ignores the fact that I have been honest with my children. These affairs were wrong, and I confessed to them. They are in my past. But my wife wants to drag them back into the present.
The problem in this situation is not naturism. It is my wife’s ambiguous approach to morality.
I do believe that had we raised the children as naturists, right through their teen years, we would not have these problems today.
Of course, naturism is not in itself a cure for things that are wrong in people’s lives.
But I do believe that a Christian naturist outlook is an extremely healthy one, especially with regard to sexual morality.
Shalom,
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Re: Questions about children in nude families

Postby natman » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:54 pm

You're kidding, right? wrote:Since I am new to this whole concept of Christian nudism, I’d like to ask a question. Please answer honestly. I am seeking to find the proper balance between these two concepts.

I have always been taught that nudity is for married couple only, and then in the privacy of their bedroom. But here I’m seeing people saying that it’s proper around children. This leads me to ask if anybody has had problems with children accepting this idea?

Jon-marc states that he was naked when the neighbor children would come over and not be seem to notice it, but what about your children? Were the visiting children ever allowed to be naked as well?

It seems that many of you have been divorced. Was the divorce due to your being a nudist? I do not need details, just a “Yes” or “No” will be fine, thank you.


"You're kidding, right?", my ex-wife divorced me because I was a Christian and she wasn't. She liked to run around the house naked and skinny-dip and saw nothing wrong with that, even around our children. Our children grew up unashamed of their bodies and seem to have very little problem wth porn. Our son followed me, accepted Christ as his Savior and was baptized. Our daughter came to know Christ a few years later.

You're kidding, right? wrote:For those of you that have married somebody with children, did they know you were a nudist before you were married?


Absolutely! As a Christian, and after one failed marriage, I wanted to make absolutely certain that my future wife knew every aspect of my life. As it turns out, she is the one that enjoys being naked and proclaiming naturism to our friends and family more than me. Her oldest child had already been endoctrinated into the world before I came along and unfortunately, he is the one that has had the bigest problem with porn, based on the reports from our family internet filter. The others seem to have a more wholesome attitude about their bodies, a stronger relationship with Jesus Christ and a determination to remain pure until marriage.

You're kidding, right? wrote: Have you had any problems with the children because of your being a nudist? Were you able to expose them to the nudist lifestyle? If so, what was their reaction?


Fortunately, the children were accustomed to seeing their mother and siblings naked around the house before I came into the picture. They accept that as a "natural" way to be and at least seem comfortable with it. They know that we have "naked time" when they shouldn't bring their friends over. They tell their friends that "Mom and dad are naked so you may not want to come over right now." They understand that not all families share our views about the human body as the "Image of God" and are respectful and sensitive to other's.

You're kidding, right? wrote:Do you honestly believe that children raised as nudists will not be involved in porn or sexual activities before marriage? Personally I would think it would only encourage that, especially the sexual activities.


That has been my personal experience and it seems to go along with the varios research studies from those like Dr. Mark Storey and many others.
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Postby LivingFree » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:02 pm

YKR,

I can't tell any personal family stories because i didn't embrace nudism until our kids were grown and gone. But I do recall reading two posts on another website that would seem to answer your question.

One mother who lives in So. Africa (no relation to Strandloper) wrote that she is a third generation nudist, and grew up in a family where everyone was always naked at home. It seemed that all of them (her siblings) grew up with a very healthy self image, and didn't seek after wrongful thoughts or behaviors as a way of life.

The other post was by a teenaged boy, who wrote that being raised in a nudist family, when he now goes out on a date, he has no desire to get inside his date's clothes. He's much more interested in what's in her heart and spirit. He wants to know what she is like, not what her body is like.

I hope this helps a bit. (I have also read somewhere that kids in naturist families tend to remain celibate longer than kids raised in textile families.)
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Postby SiteAdmin » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:06 pm

jochanaan wrote: SiteAdmin, I assume she gave you permission to take her dialogue public... :?:


Yes, of course. Sorry I wasn't clear in my OP. See the editorial emendation above.
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Postby Desert Hiker » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:53 pm

Well--We have been naturists before we married, and have been married 24 years. I have also ran across many other long term marriages among naturists, so I know that it is not a major contributing factor in divorces among naturists. Even so, I am not sure what the statistics are, but I am fairly certain it would not be too out of line with the the rest of society.

We are a whole family of full time naturists, our girls are aged 5 & 7, and everyone really appreciates the freedom of not having to get dressed--especially in the hot months of summer. The girls do like to play dress up, like all girls--and since we are not shy of nudity, they are much more free to dress in more creative ways--from the mild and conservative, to the wild and zany. They are very well balanced, happy, and confident. The oldest is doing well in school, and our youngest is starting kindergarten this year--and is anxious about it. Not all of their friends are naturists, and they are quick to dress for them without any prompting from us. The friends we have that are naturists are quickly accepted by them too.

They have no body shame, and are better off for it. We have not withheld answers questions they have posed to us about their bodies and ours. We have explained to them about conception, and birth, and the differences between the 2 sexes, and how it all fits into God's plan for us--and NO, we have not demonstrated any sex acts for them, nor would we. We firmly believe in the sanctity of the marriage bed--we may be shame free, but we are not shameless, we teach and instill strong morals and chastity. Our children know and understand the boundaries of what is, and what is not acceptable behavior--they are well equipped to resist the attempts of anyone who would desire to abuse them, and tell us of it.

Naturism is a great environment to create an open environment of trust, and willingness to talk of issues that might otherwise be withheld in an environment where such personal matters are shrouded in mystery and shame. There is a great article written by a victim of such abuse, and what he reveals that contributed to that abuse is quite eye opening--I invite you to visit the following link and read it for yourself.

http://rejectshame.com/RSabuse.html

There are statistics, and studies that support this way of life, and even Dr Lee Salk stated that children would indeed benefit from being raised in an environment, where nudity is natural and normal. For the benefit of your children, and yourself, I hope that you will consider these facts carefully when considering how to best raise them. It is a truly healthy, natural, and wholesome way of life--we are living proof of that.

Nudity is natural, clothes are not. Consider the fact that we have to apply all kinds of deodarents, medications, cleansers, and antifungal agents to those areas of our bodies that we keep covered the most. Air and sunlight are natural enemies of fungi, and bacteria--they like dark and moist environments. This is why our feet, under arms, and crotches smell like something rotten after a full day in clothes and shoes. We are also barefooters too--and we do not have to worry of our feet stinking, because they are not stuffed into those fungus incubators we call shoes. Tight fitting clothes are also just as bad--they create an ideal environment for growing fungus, and bacteria. Letting those areas see the light of day, and get some air is the best thing to prevent such unwanted infections, and the unpleasant smells they produce. After a day of wearing clothes, the best thing for a healthy body, mind, and spirit is to strip them off, and relax.:tanning:

Yes we do need clothes, as they provide us protection from the sun, and so on--but they are not needed all the time. Many times, their presence is as much a hinderence to the activity as it is a help. For instance, swimming has always been an activity that people have enjoyed nude--it is only very recently in our history that the bathing suit was invented. The most natural reason for stripping your clothes off to swim is because it is actually quite dangerous to wear clothes swimming--they restrict movement, and wiegh you down--not a desired effect when you are trying to stay afloat. Besides, our skin is quite waterproof, and quick to dry.

Skinny dipping is also an activity with a long standing tradition of people of all walks, from kings and presidents to kids and grandparents. Harry Truman was known to skinny dip quite regularly, and Amy Grant, in an interview, described going nude, and skinny dipping on what she mistakenly thought was a nude beach while on vacation. It is not a prurient activity, unless we make it one--nothing is more wholesome, natural, and healthy.

Come on in, the water is fine
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Postby Alfie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:07 pm

Having only been experiencing social nudity for a short time I find these stories and comments encouraging. I only wish I had raised my children in a more open way, clothing wise. We never went out of our way to cover up, except when pubity came along and shyness was more prevalent. Two of my grown children are now 'seekers' you could say and I hope they overcome their shyness to enjoy the freedom of naturism. I too was concerned about the number of multiple relationships repesented on these forums, but realise that it is not the naturism that would be the common thread, as if there was one!
I believe that naturism has a neutralising effect on the attraction of porn and with so much porn available today especially on the net anything that negate it's attraction has to be good.
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Postby Christ Centered Mom » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:45 pm

Thank you for your replies and comments. It is helpful in my searching for proper answers to.

Last night I was talking with my husband about this site and what I had seen so far. He reacted the same way I did, saying it was just a cult of some kind. I encouraged him to read some of the messages here and he has done so. He is unwilling to become a member himself, but did ask me to post the following question to you. He would like answers from both men and women, please.

How do you deal with children seeing boys or men with erections?

I have given this a great deal of thought today before posting it here, and I do wonder the same thing. I have seen my boys, when they were younger, with erections. I assumed it was just a response of the body to being nude after their baths. But if you are allowing children to be nude around other children and adults then I would have to assume erections are going to be visible. How is this handled with children? As adults we understand the sexual desires, but when a boy of a younger age has an erection it surely is not for such desires. How is it explained to the girls or other boys?

Perhaps this is an inappropriate question. If it is I would ask the Site Admin or other staff members to remove it so as not to offend anyone.

Thank you.
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Postby LivingFree » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:16 pm

Like Alfie, I just wish I had known all about the good side of naturism when I was just starting out with my family. It could have solved a lot of problems for us. Personally, I never had much of a problem with hard core porn, but I have enjoyed peeks into things like Playboy on occasion. Frankly, after becoming active on naturist websites, I got rid of the few issues I had around. It just doesn't interest me any more.

I can't give you an answer to the erection question from personal experience, but I remember a post on another website by a woman who grew up in a family where everyone was nude all the time. She talked about the kids (she and her siblings) seeing their dad walking around the house in the mornings dripping of pre-cumm (I guess some males have that problem in the mornings, I never did). They all understood it, and no one ever made anything over it. It wasn't a deliberate sexual thing with her father; it was just part of his unplanned, natural morning routine. I take it from that that kids aren't traumatized by natural things at home if the parents treat them as natural, and don't imply shame on it. I also think it is a much better way for parents to give their children good, healthy open sex education than what they get in the "locker room" and at overnight sleep-overs.
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Postby natman » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:59 am

I don't really know how to answer that question either as it has never happened with the kids around aside from the time that our daughter, at about 6 years old, came quietly into our bedroom while we were having sexual relations one early morning. Neither of us noticed her standing at the foot of the bed until we were almost finished. All she said was " Can I have some breakfast."

She was accustomed to seeing us naked much of the time, and by six years old, we had already had to explain why daddy was different than mommy. At that age, the typical response seems to be "That's interesting. Can I go play with Sally now?"

Like LF indicated, it's alot easier than having to untrain them from what they learn from their peers sneaking and snickering over a stolen copy of Hustler or some porn web site. And like LF, I wish now that I had been more proactive with my older children in this area than I was. However, I thnk they are not as bad off as they could have been had I been totally against all nudity around the house.
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Postby jochanaan » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:54 am

My own theory--completely untested, I have to add--is that children are more hurt by parents' overreactions than by anything they see. If a parent snaps at a son or daughter for seeing "something he shouldn't," the child quickly learns "you don't talk about this." But the natural curiosity is still there, and so is upcoming puberty.

Some research has shown that children in naturist families, who probably see their parents erect and otherwise aroused with some regularity, tend to make healthier choices regarding marriage and sexual activity. Probably they learn quickly that natural bodily responses are just that, natural, and that it's what you do with them that's good or bad.

Perhaps a good thing to say to young children is, "It's okay; it happens sometimes."
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Postby Desert Hiker » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:13 pm

Well, I do have some well tested mileage here with this issue, so I will share it.

First, let me say this is always a concern for newcomers to naturism as well--what if I get erect in front of others? And girls wonder how to respond, if at all, if a male gets erect? First of all, erections in a public, or social setting, are much more rare than most people think. Most guys think that they will walk around in a constant state of arousal, at the sight of all this nudity--this is not the case at all. First of all, most of us do not look like movie stars, and seeing the regular folks, like us, naked is not exactly sexually stimulating. So, what they find, instead of a sexually charged atmosphere, is a very joyful, and relaxed atmosphere. They find joy from realizing that no one is making a scene of it--no one is pointing at them, and laughing, or cracking jokes, or making rude comments. Most of all, they notice that everyone is very happy, and relaxed. Any notions of being made a public spectacle are quickly diminished, and give way to a true feeling of inner peace, and joy--and any early stirrings of the loins are also dismissed, and subside quickly. Of course, if, on the odd occasion, one does experience an unintentional erection, the best thing to do is not draw attention to it, sit down, and let it pass--and it will. Anyone caught trying to draw attention to their erection, or purposely stimulating themselves at a club will find themselves quickly ejected--and not welcomed to return. So, the usual remedy is to jump in the cold water of the pool, or sit down--most people understand, so long as the man is not making a nuisance of himself, or acting oddly.

In a family setting, as you have noticed, men and boys of all ages experience erections without provocation--this is NORMAL. DO NOT react to it like they have caught a virulant disease, they are not likely sexually aroused. Men, and boys (especially boys) have very little conscious control over this function--especially first thing in the morning, it is often up before we are. This most commonly is a response to the pressure on the prostate from the need to pee--so, once we pee, it goes away quickly. My daughters have seen me erect many times shortly after rising from bed, and have asked why it is pointing up like that. I sat them down and explained why, and even explained how this helps during the sex act. They now understand, and never make make an issue over it. We all know it is a natural thing that happens to men and boys, and we just treat it as a normal thing. My childrens innocence remains intact as well, in fact nothing is more innocent, and sweet as the sight of a happy young child bouncing boldly about--free of clothes, and shame.

Sometimes, erections can occur at the most inopportune times too, like when your child comes and sits on your lap :oops: I just shift myself, and tuck it down, or away from my child. They have also learned not to sit directly on it, and sit to one side to avoid making me uncomfortable. Other times these occasionally occur are when we are rough housing, and wrestling--we just go on, and ignore it. It is a normal, and natural part of life--just as much as breathing is. Of course, thank God, we don't get erections as often as we breathe, but we treat them with respect, and don't over-react to them. That is the real key--just don't over react. Children will be asking questions when they notice new things, once that curiosity is satisfied, they file it away, and move on. This is one reason why I know that a home environment where nudity is a normal thing, helps kids learn about themselves, and the functions of our bodies. They see, they ask questions, they learn, and understand, and they have very few unanswered questions to inspire them to seek the "advice and counsel" from their friends at school :roll:--like we did, when I was young. Sure they will talk with each other, but they know more than those others do, and know what is proper behavior--and they are better equipped to resist the urges of their peers to do those things, because there is less curiosity driving them into this temptation. There are validated statistics to support this, too--this is not just a theory. Children raised in homes where nudity was a normal part of their home life, were much less likely to behave promisquously, and become pregnant, or contract an STD.

Believe me, I would give up naturism in a New York second, if I even thought for a nano second, that it was contributing to their delinquency in any way. I had to be sure about this first, myself--so I did my homework, just as you are doing now. When I first discovered a website talking of Christian naturism--and how naturism was compatible with people of faith, I had the same reaction you, and your husband did--YEAH RIGHT!!?? This is a big joke, right? They are a bunch of cult freaks, twisting Bible verses, and so on... Imagine my surprise to learn, as you are finding now, that they were not a bunch of freaks following their charismatic leader off to drink his kool aid. In fact I was surprised to find people of very conservative values, from some of the most conservative faiths--such as Baptists, Mennonites, Assemblies of God, even Catholics, and a few Jewish people--in fact, most every denomination canbe found in our ranks. And I was also pleased to see how well we all got along, and learned to celebrate our unity in Christ, and love for natural, shame free nudity.

I have learned to appreciate how God has made my naked body, and those of others--and being as how we are all made in His image, He sees no shame in our nakedness before Him. So why should we see shame in ourselves, each other without cause? Being naked has never been a sin, and wearing clothes has never stopped us from sinning anyway. So what do clothes protect us from?--extreme cold, heat, and injury in performing risky tasks--but they certainly provide no protection from sin--only Jesus can do that. These rags we wear only give us an illusion of propriety, and often cause others to look longingly at us, as the fashions we wear often flatter our figures, and hide our "flaws"--in effect defeating the purpose of their being worn. Some of us even wear these clothes to cause others to stumble, and be tempted by the sight of us--where as being naked is not often something that flatters us, because when we are all naked, we all look rather ordinary--which is just fine by me, because I am long over, and done with trying to attract people, and cause a stir.

I am simply most comfortable this way--naked. I would be naked, even if, and especially if were all alone. I have no illusions of granduer, of being some stud muffin, or beef cake for the ladies to oggle at--indeed, I am not a "hottie". Frankly, I would be breifly flattered to be swooned over by some young female--but I am not in this for that...besides, most females of any age, do not find a rather hairy, middle aged man, with a pot belly all that attractive--particularly a naked one :lol: This is simply about being comfortable, and happy with who you are, and how God has made you--nothing added, nothing taken away--just natural.

Forgive my rambling on here, but I hope this helps answer your questions.
Peace In Christ, Sam

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Postby MatthewNeal » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:16 pm

Hi, everyone.

I did not have access to this discussion before, but I requested it and it was granted. Thanks Natman and SiteAdmin!

I did however respond to YKR privately since I was not able to publicly. However, I thought I would post them here anyway since they might be significant to other visitors to the site AND I would like some comments from others of you regarding my thoughts.

So, here was my first response to YKR after her first post.

Hello.

I hope you won't mind me responding privately to your inquiries.

I'm not that much different from you, actually. I have never been to a social nudist setting. I've never even been freely or intentionally nude in front of my family. My only "participation" is that my wife and I have skinny dipped together from time to time (nighttime in our own dark pool), and we've enjoyed sleeping nude all our married lives. But that's universally accepted in Christendom.

I'm employed in full time ministry. My wife and I both come from very conservative backgrounds.

I have a 12 YO son... and I'm really concerned about how to help him avoid the temptations of pornography and/or other sexual addictions.

Quite frankly, I know how I myself was raised... and my wife. But I was not able to resist the secretive, lustful seduction of pornography, even as a committed believer. My wife also was involved in things too secret for her to ever admit to her parents. We both arrived at our marriage bed as virgins, but not as innocents.

So, if the very strict upbringing and committed and faithful and consistent Christian home I was raised in still did not prepare me to be able to stand against the temptations that came to a hormone-rich and curious teenage boy, what confidence do I have that I'll be able to better guide my son that I was guided?

I have no such confidence.... until now.

True, I've always (and especially in the last 10 years) enjoyed being naked myself, but I have NEVER paraded around naked in front of my family! Nor would I have even thought to do so. I, like most all Christians would have assumed that "Christian Nudist" was most certainly as stupid as "Christian Hedonism" or "Christian Pornography."

Imagine my astounding surprise to find that there are well-spoken, theologically sound, level-headed, devoted followers of my Lord Jesus who promote and/or defend naturism as not just permissable, but preferable, even beneficial, even God Honoring! These aren't just wackos or a cult that call themselves Christians who are trying to use the bible to justify their sin. They are lovers of God who know how to "rightly divide the word of Truth," ... something that I value very highly.

So, why do I have confidence now? Because I've discovered a new way of thinking that might hold the key... Surprisingly... more exposure to nudity, not less! Seems counterintuitive, let alone counter-Christian. But better to have that exposure for my children under my watchful eye, and in the safety of our home rather than from a nearby trashcan with somebody else's children... (I found and viewed some magazines in an apartment complex trash bin where I delivered papers in my youth!)

I've discovered a web site by a committed Christian called rejectshame.com and his articles are both powerful and hopeful. You would do well to read them.

I'll share more of my journey and thoughts with you if you want and ask. At this point, I'm still talking about it with my wife, wanting her agreement before we change our habits in the home.

I suppose the reason i represent a different kind of voice than the others on CNV is this... I have NOT become a nudist at this point yet. I'm not trying to justify what I already "indulge" in. I'm still really only exploring it... but I'm becoming a believer. And I'm becoming excited about what it could mean for me as a father, and for us as a family.

And I think I'm about as surprised as anyone at my change of mind!

Have a great day.

Matt
Last edited by MatthewNeal on Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MatthewNeal
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Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:11 pm
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