Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

We hear a lot of talk about harming children nowadays. Doesn't exposing them to nudity in the home (and elsewhere) give them a warped outlook on life?<P>Only Native and Permanent Residents may post here.

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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:14 am

But then:









The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby jasenj1 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:48 am

prairieboy wrote:
Bare_Truth wrote:The concept of "you will be like God, knowing good and evil" really comes down to deciding for ones self what is good and what is evil.


I agree with this. The knowledge of good and evil was NOT some impartation of Godly knowledge. If it was, it would be universal like the death that came with it. You don't have to look very far to see that the knowledge of right and wrong is not universal, even within the church, or even from generation to generation within the same church

Ah. Now I'm following. "The knowledge of good and evil" is the capacity to make moral judgements. To declare things right or wrong, not that those judgements would be accurate or in accordance with God's will in any way. I'll buy that.

The original poster was challenging the notion that the knowledge of nakedness came from Satan - he told Adam & Eve they were naked. I don't believe, and the commenter did not believe, the text supports that.

jasenj1 wrote:I thought this was a pretty good response:
"Who told them that they were naked? No one. This was the first knowledge they received as a result of having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, they knew that nakedness is evil. You who are teaching otherwise are on dangerous ground."

Anyone care to counter it? Or has Matthew Neal already done so on The Biblical Naturist?


Let's just look at the sequence of events.

Adam and Eve, sinless, in unhindered communion with God.
Naked and unashamed. And yes, they knew they were naked, it just wasn't an issue.

Did they? They knew they weren't wearing clothes. But I don't think there was any moral judgement or value placed on it. "Naked" has many more connotations than merely not having clothes on.

Adam and Eve, sinners, under the dominion of satan.
Are we to believe that at this juncture they suddenly came to the (Godly?) knowledge that what God had no problem with was actually wrong? shameful?
Do you want me to believe that under the dominion of satan their knowledge had increased? become more pure? Really?
If clothing was the answer, why hide in the bushes?

Right. The popular interpretation is that Adam & Eve were correct in their desire to wear clothes. But the text doesn't make that clear. God created them nude and liked them that way. Upon sinning, they decided that wasn't a good way to be - and they also thought they could hide from God, and were afraid of God, and shifted blame for their sin rather than confessing & repenting. Once they ate the fruit, they made a series of bad decisions. Why do we think the decision to cover themselves was a correct choice? We may as well also say it's good to hide when you've done something wrong, or blame others for the poor choices you make.
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:35 am

prairieboy wrote:The original poster was challenging the notion that the knowledge of nakedness came from Satan - he told Adam & Eve they were naked. I don't believe, and the commenter did not believe, the text supports that.

I believe that Adam and Eve simply percieved a sense of lack or loss. It was a spiritual problem of course, but they applied a physical solution. There is no direct evidence that Satan told them that their bodies were missing something. There are animals with abundant fur and animals about as hairless as humans. Other than being among God's fairly hairless creatures, we don't look much different from most mammals. Our mental capacity and spiritual capacity is the difference.

prairieboy wrote:Let's just look at the sequence of events.
Adam and Eve, sinless, in unhindered communion with God.
Naked and unashamed. And yes, they knew they were naked, it just wasn't an issue.

..."they knew they were naked"??? Huh?


jasenj1 wrote:Did they? They knew they weren't wearing clothes. But I don't think there was any moral judgement or value placed on it. "Naked" has many more connotations than merely not having clothes on....

In a warm thorn-free environment such as Eden must have had, our skin is all we need for happy comfortable daily life. Adam and Eve probably had a deep rich protective brown skin and the UV rays reaching the Earth's surface may have been lower by some unknown quantity. Not only that, resting during the midday heat under a canopy of tree cover would provide all the protection our bodies needed. The thought of creating clothing would have not even occurred to Adam and Eve. What is clothing? They wouldn't even know to ask...before their fall from grace.

jasenj1 wrote:Right. The popular interpretation is that Adam & Eve were correct in their desire to wear clothes. But the text doesn't make that clear. God created them nude and liked them that way. Upon sinning, they decided that wasn't a good way to be - and they also thought they could hide from God, and were afraid of God, and shifted blame for their sin rather than confessing & repenting. Once they ate the fruit, they made a series of bad decisions. Why do we think the decision to cover themselves was a correct choice? We may as well also say it's good to hide when you've done something wrong, or blame others for the poor choices you make.

Well said!
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby natman » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:53 pm

Petros wrote:But then:











Except for the guy in the kilt, I wonder how many of those creatures dressed themselves and/or prefer to be dressed. :roll:
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:55 pm

Well, quite. Can't even be sure of Hamish. I'm sure, like me, he dressed himself, likely chose his costume. But certainly nobody asked me if I preferred being clothed, and I doubt they asked Hamish.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby prairieboy » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:11 pm

I should have explained my statement. Many (anti-nudity) people make it sound like Adam and Eve suddenly realized that they had no clothes on. I can't see how nakedness in the sense of being unclothed was even a concept that they would understand, having no frame of reference. I believe that the nakedness that they experienced was the sense of being exposed, of being vulnerable. Up until this time they had never been vulnerable since they were the supreme beings on the earth, except for God, and He was their friend.
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:24 pm

What no one ever seems to ask [except possibly the "clothed in light carefully hiding the naughty bits" proponents] is if nudity is so all-fired bad why did God make them hairless and let them be naked?

Almost seems clothing is closer to the mark of Cain.
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby natman » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:37 pm

Petros wrote:Almost seems clothing is closer to the mark of Cain.


I agree. :like:
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby prairieboy » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Petros wrote:Almost seems clothing is closer to the mark of Cain.


I have felt for some time that to be anti-nudity is to be disrespectful of God. I could word it stronger than that, but that will do for now.
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby pipermac » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:37 pm

prairieboy wrote:
Petros wrote:Almost seems clothing is closer to the mark of Cain.


I have felt for some time that to be anti-nudity is to be disrespectful of God. I could word it stronger than that, but that will do for now.
:like:

How about...to be anti-nudity is a slap in the face for God, because He made us the way we are, and called it "very good".

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

Steve :cross:
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:28 pm

And perhaps the fair comment on the specifications of the priestly vestments in Exodus comes in Matthew 19, mutatis mutandis:

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command [to give a writing of
divorcement, and to put her away
]?

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you [to put away your wives]: but from the beginning it was not so.
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:50 am

Petros wrote:And perhaps the fair comment on the specifications of the priestly vestments in Exodus comes in Matthew 19, mutatis mutandis:

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command [to give a writing of
divorcement, and to put her away
]?

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you [to put away your wives]: but from the beginning it was not so.

Give this man the prize! It is the best explanation of prescribed clothing for the priests.

As tolerant of farm labor nudity and fishing boat nudity as ancient Israelites were, compared to most modern-day Americans, it must also be said that they were a wicked bunch in many cases. Looking up the skirts of elderly priests as they ascended the steps of an altar would have been too big an opportunity for mirth and mockery, maybe a bit of lust in the eyes of the most perverted of them. And ultimately the wrath of God would come down hard on thousands of these fools, so the Lord used Moses to set some practical guidelines to prevent this. As Jesus said, "because of the hardness of your hearts".

I guess it begs the question, "Why didn't God demand total nudity of everyone, priests and spectators on occasions of public worship?". Anyone care to speculate?
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:46 am

Canaanite orgiastic worship and cult prostitutes? Quien sabe?
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:02 am

Petros wrote:Canaanite orgiastic worship and cult prostitutes? Quien sabe?


Perhaps, once again, the aristocrats and wannabes were already too prideful to accept the egalitarian spirit of nudity.
"Why if we were nude, we'd be indistinguishable from those barbaric naked peasants who work our fields!".

So perhaps Moses realized, that he could not mandate mass nudity?

Col. Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to.

Col. Jessep: *You want answers?*

Kaffee: *I want the truth!*

Col. Jessep: *You can't handle the truth!*

"I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able..." I Cor. 3:2
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Re: Christianity Today - Kids Naked and Unashamed

Postby Petros » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:45 pm

It is very clear / very true that the purposes of clothing, along with insulation, sunblock, anti-thorn kevlar include ornamentation for the looks centered, camouflage for the deviant, and ostentation for the affluent / powerful. And the ordering of those motives is difficult to determine.

The Paris original gown and the Nazi officer's uniform are much sought after.

And I would be fine with that if we could just walk unchafed and sit unbound.
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