Nudism, "A Right"

[prairieboy]

I just came across this today. Excellent article.
familyskinnydippers.com/public/why.php

[Johannes_1965]

... On one hand nudity is not a sin of itself, (society tries to make it a sin because it gets associated with sin too much) on the other hand it's not a commanded state of being, (except in the isolated case of Isaiah for the purpose of a demonstrated prophecy) consequently it's not worth fighting over.
We need to spend our time on more important things, like learning how to build a character fit for heaven, and leading others to the same... We just better be alert, and very careful where we stand, doctrinally, and every way. as Jesus said; "strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:14

I endorse your desire to gain more freedom and rights for nudism in the United States. I think in Europe we have more. But on the other hand I like the statement of Dave, who didn't come back to defend it.
There are other rights much more important to fight for:
The right to exist is directly violated by abortion, "consumptive" (killing) research on embryos as well as euthanasia (already possible in the Netherlands and Switzerland).
The holiness of marriage is violated in many ways. Human dignity is attacked by the ideology of gender, pushed by the UN and EU: everybody has to decide his sexual identity and orientation for himself, beginning from the kindergarden.
If there's something to fight for in public I choose the right to live from conception to natural death as well as the God given identity and meaning of the human body, the dignity of marriage and family.
I like to be nude, according to what is reasonable and what God allows me. Fighting for the right I leave to you.
Johannes

[wearingair]

... On one hand nudity is not a sin of itself, (society tries to make it a sin because it gets associated with sin too much) on the other hand it's not a commanded state of being, (except in the isolated case of Isaiah for the purpose of a demonstrated prophecy) consequently it's not worth fighting over.
We need to spend our time on more important things, like learning how to build a character fit for heaven, and leading others to the same... We just better be alert, and very careful where we stand, doctrinally, and every way. as Jesus said; "strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:14

I endorse your desire to gain more freedom and rights for nudism in the United States. I think in Europe we have more. But on the other hand I like the statement of Dave, who didn't come back to defend it.
There are other rights much more important to fight for:
The right to exist is directly violated by abortion, "consumptive" (killing) research on embryos as well as euthanasia (already possible in the Netherlands and Switzerland).
The holiness of marriage is violated in many ways. Human dignity is attacked by the ideology of gender, pushed by the UN and EU: everybody has to decide his sexual identity and orientation for himself, beginning from the kindergarden.
If there's something to fight for in public I choose the right to live from conception to natural death as well as the God given identity and meaning of the human body, the dignity of marriage and family.
I like to be nude, according to what is reasonable and what God allows me. Fighting for the right I leave to you.
Johannes

Sorry but I will have to disagree with you on this one and not because I want start a argument, but because I really think this is the wrong way to look at it and I am poor writer and I cant say more diplomatically.

I think to ignore one right on the basses that it looks less important on the surface then another is also wrong. This effects people in so many ways and at so many levels I can not begin consider what sort of affects it would have on society in general. How may teenagers kill them selves every year because of poor body image, anorexia, low self of steam because they feel there bodies are ugly? How many teen pregnancies would not happen, thus less abortions? How many people take drugs because this very issue. How many people are kidnapped each year to support the porn industry? .....est.

I am not saying nudism is a silver bullet, but how many of this problems that you state could be helped by just have more respect for ones owns body and not seeing other peoples body as a mystery and as some dirty sex object only to exploit?

How much more happier would be?

wearingair

PS: I hope some can add to this, I know I didn't say it very well.

[Johannes_1965]

...
Sorry but I will have to disagree with you on this one and not because I want start a argument, but because I really think this is the wrong way to look at it and I am poor writer and I cant say more diplomatically.

I think to ignore one right on the basses that it looks less important on the surface then another is also wrong. This effects people in so many ways and at so many levels I can not begin consider what sort of affects it would have on society in general. How may teenagers kill them selves every year because of poor body image, anorexia, low self of steam because they feel there bodies are ugly? How many teen pregnancies would not happen, thus less abortions? How many people take drugs because this very issue. How many people are kidnapped each year to support the porn industry? .....est.

I am not saying nudism is a silver bullet, but how many of this problems that you state could be helped by just have more respect for ones owns body and not seeing other peoples body as a mystery and as some dirty sex object only to exploit?

How much more happier would be?

wearingair

PS: I hope some can add to this, I know I didn't say it very well.

Wearingair, thanks for expressing your dissent, you said it well enough! What you talk about are reallly important issues that need to be addressed. I think the help you suggest, to have more respect for the own body and that of others, is a spiritual remedy. It' s about understanding the sense of human life, about experiencing love in a family and the love of God in prayer. Feeling free to walk around nude would not be the remedy but the last consequence of seeing things in a new way.

There's a hierarchy of values where life itself, the body itself (clad or nude), the experience of love in marriage and family are very high. On the other hand to be nude where and when I want is also a value but I would rank it very low. In my opinion the ill points you have listed (poor body image, low self esteem, teen pregnancies, abortions, drugs, porn...) call for a conversion in the Christian sense: to experience love, to be accepted without conditions, to face the truth of Christ (John 8,34-36), to repent of sins and change habits. To discover the practice of naturism may be a result of the process but I don't think it's the beginning of it.
I'm not opposed to fighting for more rights of nudism in public, but that's not my call! I won't do it! I'm just happy to practice naturism, whenever it is possible and appropriate.
Johannes

[wearingair]

Wearingair, thanks for expressing your dissent, you said it well enough! What you talk about are reallly important issues that need to be addressed. I think the help you suggest, to have more respect for the own body and that of others, is a spiritual remedy. It' s about understanding the sense of human life, about experiencing love in a family and the love of God in prayer. Feeling free to walk around nude would not be the remedy but the last consequence of seeing things in a new way.

There's a hierarchy of values where life itself, the body itself (clad or nude), the experience of love in marriage and family are very high. On the other hand to be nude where and when I want is also a value but I would rank it very low. In my opinion the ill points you have listed (poor body image, low self esteem, teen pregnancies, abortions, drugs, porn...) call for a conversion in the Christian sense: to experience love, to be accepted without conditions, to face the truth of Christ (John 8,34-36), to repent of sins and change habits. To discover the practice of naturism may be a result of the process but I don't think it's the beginning of it.
I'm not opposed to fighting for more rights of nudism in public, but that's not my call! I won't do it! I'm just happy to practice naturism, whenever it is possible and appropriate.
Johannes

I agree with you in many ways but I still think you are stuck in the old way of thinking if I can put it that way. If you go back to the Garden of Edan and look at what was said:

Gen 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."
Gen 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you [were] naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?"

I think the lack of nakedness/nudity is a spiritual sickness and has a effect on all aspects of are lives in a negative way. I think Satan's cunning deception was his first and greatest strike at Gods children. To convince Adam and Eve that they were naked, and that some how their bodies were corrupt was a great triumph.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... &v=1&t=KJV

The first thing that God did was create us in his own image and we have come to believe that this image is dirty and sexual and needs to be hidden from view. I don't think this is a small matter at all in the the scheme of things, in fact I think it is at the heart and facilitator of the of many sins and that it is very much a spiritual matter.

I am not so nave to think that nudity is the only answer to the sins caused by this spiritual sickness but I think it may be the best. And I am also, not nave enough to think that we are back in the Garden of Edan and that clothing is not needed. I believe that clothing should be put in their proper place and used when needed.

IMHO, This is why I think nudist rights are so important and how it could help so many people by removing clothing that separates us from God. I am tiered of hearing Satan lying whispers of the negatives and vanities of God's image that he created. But as things are it seems I have no choice and I am forced to hide in the shadows and in designated nudist areas, because even many of my fellow nudist fail to understand the society need for our rights to be acknowledged and respected.

I hope I have made some sense, and I am trying to understand this myself, there is so much to say about this I can hardly get my mind around it. When people feel good about them selves and how they look and feel closer to God, it can make all the difference in the world.

wearingair

[jochanaan]

In Europe and North America, we tend to separate the physical and the spiritual too much. Can we get spiritual healing for body-image and self-esteem issues without embracing nudism? I suppose we could--but naturism offers a "short cut" by backing up thought and feeling with action, just as our Christian faith is strengthened by acts of love towards others.

[Johannes_1965]

...I agree with you in many ways but I still think you are stuck in the old way of thinking if I can put it that way. If you go back to the Garden of Edan and look at what was said...

I follow you well in our Biblical quotes and arguments. As far as I can’t follow some of your new ways of thinking, I’m certainly stuck in the old ones. And this is where I can’t follow you:

I think the lack of nakedness/nudity is a spiritual sickness and has a effect on all aspects of are lives in a negative way. I think Satan's cunning deception was his first and greatest strike at Gods children. To convince Adam and Eve that they were naked, and that some how their bodies were corrupt was a great triumph...

The first thing that God did was create us in his own image and we have come to believe that this image is dirty and sexual and needs to be hidden from view. I don't think this is a small matter at all in the the scheme of things, in fact I think it is at the heart and facilitator of the of many sins and that it is very much a spiritual matter...

IMHO, This is why I think nudist rights are so important and how it could help so many people by removing clothing that separates us from God. I am tiered of hearing Satan lying whispers of the negatives and vanities of God's image that he created. But as things are it seems I have no choice and I am forced to hide in the shadows and in designated nudist areas, because even many of my fellow nudist fail to understand the society need for our rights to be acknowledged and respected...
wearingair

The spiritual sickness is sin in my opinion, but being clothed is no sin at all. Satan convinced Adam and Eve to transgress God’s commandment and to eat of the forbidden fruit. He didn’t convince them that they were naked, they discovered it themselves: “Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.” (Gen 3,7)
What does that mean? They discovered shame because of their sin and everything got messed up, including their sexual feelings. That’s why they felt the need of loin coverings to hide or avoid lust coming up and they also wanted to hide from God, but in vain.
In fact, the sin of disobedience and distrust of God introduced a real corruption of body and soul, so that man would know suffering, even more sin and shame, as well as physical death and a certain separation or alienation from God. So the image really became dirty compared with the original state before the Fall.

Redemption must follow the opposite way: to begin with trust in God, obedience, receiving his love and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. Then the consequences may follow: feeling free of shame and renouncing the fig leaves.
At the heart of sins is the human heart, not clothing. To begin with nudism doesn’t redeem us from sin and shame of the body. Clothing separates us in no way from God! It’s not only really necessary for all kinds of protection (from being exploited, from cold, rain, snow, storm, too much sun…) but also a cultural gift beyond any necessity: A joy to express oneself in colors and style, a beautiful and meaningful sign to others. Clothing is very good, as the body is! Our society needs conversion, conversion, conversion. A result may be general acceptance of nudism.

Because you believe or feel that clothing separate us from God, I understand much better why you attach such a high value to the cause of nudism. And perhaps you understand better why nudism is secondary to me and I won’t fight for it.
Johannes

[Johannes_1965]

In Europe and North America, we tend to separate the physical and the spiritual too much. Can we get spiritual healing for body-image and self-esteem issues without embracing nudism?

Yes, we can. (This is no political statement).

I suppose we could--but naturism offers a "short cut" by backing up thought and feeling with action, just as our Christian faith is strengthened by acts of love towards others.

I don’t see the short cut, but the backing up. First thought and feeling then action!
A short cut could be to cut short sin by a good human and Christian education from childhood on. Children learning the naturist principles and practice from their parents are the only short cut I can imagine.
Johannes

[wearingair]

Johannes, I find your replies to be well polished and I can agree with some of it, but there is stuff that I see differently, and there is more to it in my opinion. Such as Satan knew very well what would happen with Adam and Eves by their disobedience, and that is the triumph that I am speaking of, weather they found out that they were naked on their own, or Satan convincing them makes little differences, it happened.

Yes a conversion must take place, but where does that conversion begin and what can help that conversion to happen? Life is a process, and believing and trusting God does not always happen over night, or in an instant. There are many paths to finding God, and there are many things that separate us from God, such as clothing, but that does not make clothing or things evil. Jesus talked about clothing also,

Mat 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Mat 6:26 "Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
Mat 6:27 "Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
Mat 6:28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
Mat 6:29 "and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

I have read many posts of people being freed form psychological problems and sinful behavior just by simply removing their clothing and then finding themselves closer to God and others in the process. I have also found this to be true in my own life.

wearingair

[Johannes_1965]

I love the verses you have quoted against worry and that end like this: "...your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." (Mat 6,32b-33)

Now I'll talk about my feelings and experience. I feel that clothes may separate from God when they express esoterism or satanism in there design, like death skulls or other ugly elements celebrating death or sin.
I found out that naturism doesn't seperate me from God, doesn't change my relation in prayer. The feeling of God's presence may have sometimes been even more intense on lonely nude hikes because I listen more to his will and have been protected from unwanted encounters. But on the other side it didn't take away my psychological problems either and I don't feel I would have become a better person because of naturism.
Even the idea that clothing could separate me from God makes me laugh (sorry). This really contradicts my experience and conviction: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8,38-39)

I haven't read any posts so far "of people being freed from psychological problems and sinful behavior just by simply removing their clothing and then finding themselves closer to God and others in the process". If this is true, I am wrong and have to change my opinion. In fact, "there are many paths to finding God" and I can't exclude that He may grant conversion and healing through nudism first. Can you give me the link to such a post?

I have also found this to be true in my own life.

What would motivate you to take off your clothes for the first time, in the first pace? You don’t need to answer this in public.
Johannes

[Ramblinman]

What would motivate you to take off your clothes for the first time, in the first pace? You don’t need to answer this in public.
Johannes

We are born naked. Clothes are put on us later on. This is a necessity in a modern society in the temperate zone, but children have a strong desire to remove their clothing if they are in a warm room or it is warm outside. It is at that stage of life a matter of comfort. A wise parent will indulge his children these moments of nudity, but making sure that the child does not soil the carpet or get a chill or sunburn.

Total nudity puts our body in direct and complete contact with the natural world and much of the time (where I live) that is a pure joy. Clothing can be a form of sensory deprivation, a necessity in bad weather or in bad company, but when possible I revert to my natural condition.

Social nudity is somewhat different from solitary nudity. In nudist FKK settings, it a matter of being with kindred spirits. There is strength in numbers. My experience has been that I will sometimes see attractive young women at nudist places, but for the most part there are ordinary-looking middle-aged couples, elderly people and children and men like myself. There is beauty in all of naked humanity, but not an experience of wild desire.

If I wanted to see beautiful young women, I would have better luck at the textile beach and they are nearly as naked there. But nudist campgrounds offer a sense of community that I can't get in ordinary campgrounds.
There is also a feeling of freedom, egalitarian living, comfort, connection with nature, acceptance that is tangible, not just theory.

My first social nude experience I was very nervous. It was not titillating at all. But, I got over the momentary shock and realized that nudists have created islands of a better social order than society at large. I appreciated the nudity of my own body and that of others, but in a platonic affirming way.

So I am nude at home and in my private yard and derive benefit from the solo experience, but enjoy social nudity as well when time and budget allow.

[JimShedd112]

Ramblinman, I believe you have captured, in your words, the truth of what nudism is really all about.

Jim

[Ramblinman]

In Europe and North America, we tend to separate the physical and the spiritual too much. Can we get spiritual healing for body-image and self-esteem issues without embracing nudism? I suppose we could--but naturism offers a "short cut" by backing up thought and feeling with action, just as our Christian faith is strengthened by acts of love towards others.

I agree!
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. James Chapter 2 verse 22

Children can learn from their parents by word and good example. That is the easiest and best way to be comfortable in your own skin.

Adults may come to realize intellectually that nudity is good for mind and body, but hesitate to overcome years of negative conditioning. Social nudity is proved to help them gain courage to act on this knowledge.

But many people don't learn by years of study and developing theories. They might pick up on a concept more quickly by seeing it in action. Some friends of mine could speculate for years on the pros and cons of FKK or nudist beaches and camps, but when they actually stumble across one and see a proper nudist event or just daily life in a campground, it suddenly makes sense. We must accept that different people have different methods of learning.

In either case, participation in social nudity is the catalyst for rapid change in attitude.
A few people claim that they don't need social nudity, that they already have a good attitude, but this claim is untested and usually false unless they have real life experiences with social nudity to back it up.

There are some people with perverted attitudes about nudity and manage to enter a nudist resort. Typically their lust is revealed very quickly and they are forcibly removed from the premises and reported to the national organization to warn other campgrounds and resorts.

On the other hand, we have had some men who have tried all sorts of well-intended methods to break their habit of porn. If it is not clinical addictive behavior, but simply a bad habit, chances are good that the nudist community is the best path to reform. But it may need to start with a mentor, spiritual guide, online fellowship and when the penitent is ready, go to an actual nudist venue.
I have read testimonies from men who have escaped the porn habit. This is not the same as actual addiction, but still a widespread problem that social nudity can quickly cure when more conventional church-based remedies are ineffective.

[natman]

I haven't read any posts so far "of people being freed from psychological problems and sinful behavior just by simply removing their clothing and then finding themselves closer to God and others in the process".

I think that you will find lots of members here who will testify that naturism has helped them deal with issues of lust and pornography, mostly by being able to see the human body for what it REALLY is, the creation of God, made in His image and for His pleasure and glory, in the light of day, exposing warts, wrinkles, bumps, bruises, sags, gray hairs and all, rather than what the WORLD says it is, something to be objectified, lusted after, exclusively sexualized, in soft light, made-up, air-brushed, glossed and computer enhanced.



Although I would say that I have never had a "problem" with pornography, I can see it's attraction and the lies that it pervades as truth. However, in understanding the Truth of Scripture, the fact that we are God's creation and in seeing REAL people in all their glory and lack there of, such attraction is greatly diminished if not eliminated altogether.



There is a website that does a good job of presenting this case.



http://mychainsaregone.org/

[Johannes_1965]

Ramblinman, I believe you have captured, in your words, the truth of what nudism is really all about.

Jim

Yes, I agree, it's a really good summary. Your contributions have confirmed in a way what I wanted to say: There's some insight, truth, new attitude first. It may lead to naturist experience and practice that bears further fruit in life.
I don't deny any of the benefits. If nudism is "a right", it's first a natural right granted by God. It's possible to act on that right, even though denied in general public.
I'm happy that I did it today: about three hours of nude hiking, bathing, praying, taking photos, videos and rest in a beautiful wilderness along a hidden creek in the Pyrenees.
Johannes