Biophilia and Gymnophilia

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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Petros » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:04 am

No, all won't. Not even all who agree with most of your premises. There are too many variables and different preferences.

And bear in mind - live as healthily, as "sustainably", as environmentally soundly as you please: Millennia of experience shows that until all DO move out the cities and industrial blights will grow and spread and eat your woods and pave your clearing [and put up a parking lot in Paradise, if you recall that one.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:19 am

Petros wrote:No, all won't. Not even all who agree with most of your premises. There are too many variables and different preferences.

And bear in mind - live as healthily, as "sustainably", as environmentally soundly as you please: Millennia of experience shows that until all DO move out the cities and industrial blights will grow and spread and eat your woods and pave your clearing [and put up a parking lot in Paradise, if you recall that one.

In ages past most folks were farmers but some were millers, merchants, blacksmiths, fishermen a few specialists here and there.

My country cousins ate the vegetables that they grew, not spraying because toxic sprays had not yet been invented, worked hard all day and lived remarkably long lives unless they were drafted into some war or injured on the farm or by misguided doctors. Too many of them smoked and drank homebrewed whiskey, diet wasn't always perfect, but hard work and homegrown vegetables is more good practice than most people get today.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:54 am

It was because of that exercise, and way less processed food, and regular meal times, (fast food and snacks were the exception rather than norm) That people lived long in spite of tobacco and whiskey. Drop those and more improvement in health and longevity could be seen. While the average age of death was much lower than now, a lot more children died which pulled the average down. I've heard it said if one survived childhood they had a good chance of living to be old.

While trying to live without money exchange now is possible, sort of, not completely, if you have land there's still land tax. While I do intend to live fairly primitive and grow my own food for health and to share with others, I also don't need to cut myself off from society, to travel and make friends, to help people elsewhere, all takes money, so making a decent amount is still necessary in order to stay in circulation in society. And there will be ongoing expense in restocking occasionally with mineral products for the produce growing business. Since the soil is so washed out much has to be added back to get good production.

I do know that for God's people there will come a time where they will be cut off from money because they insist on obeying God's law. But when that time comes, God will sustain His people, and we will be only a very short time till Jesus comes. But apparently just long enough delay for land tax to become an issue and them start taking land away. But in money shortage times they may do it quicker than now. And while the information is in the Bible. It isn't made real clear. It takes further revelations of God's messengers to clarify the issues we will face and spell out the correct position to take. And the map of the future we've been given by the recent messengers tells us we can expect massive disasters to hit, followed by a massive turning back to God movement in the population that survives. Many good reforms implemented, but among them an effort to force everyone to go to church, or at least refrain from work on Sunday. But since God cannot accept forced worship, and since God specifically stated and wrote on rock that the 7th day is the sabbath. There's where the issue begins. God chooses to use the sabbath issue as the final test, just as he used the two trees in Eden for the first test. And progresses until Lucifer stages a wonderful fake "second coming of Christ" show, deceiving almost the whole world. And pushing for elimination of those rebellious sabbath keepers who are said to be responsible for holding up God's blessings. When actually they are the favored of God because they insist on honoring Him as their Creator by observing the whole law. Great numbers of sabbath keepers are killed in concentration camps, just beheaded in mass. And with conditions in the earth heading fast toward life extinction unless God takes action, it puts a real intensity into the situation. Finally a law is made condemning all remaining saturday sabbath keepers to be killed on sight (as if they were the worst of criminals) starting on a certain night at 12 AM. But it won't happen. Because God's angels surround them, and at that point God calls a halt to the proceedings, and a few days later the real Jesus appears in the clouds and takes them all to heaven, along with resurrecting every saved person since the beginning of time and taking them up, other than the few who are already in heaven. Like Elijah, Enoch, and a group that was resurrected and went with Jesus when he went to heaven, etc. Just keep yer eyes open and see if it doesn't happen just that way. I know it will.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:50 pm

DaveT wrote:It was because of that exercise, and way less processed food, and regular meal times, (fast food and snacks were the exception rather than norm)

When I am working I forget about food, but I try to stop for lunch, does not have to be much, shouldn't be much in fact.
As for snacks, I will admit to feasting on blueberries, wild plums or blackberries when I find them as I hike along a trail somewhere.

DaveT wrote:That people lived long in spite of tobacco and whiskey. Drop those and more improvement in health and longevity could be seen.

Yeah, those old-timers in my family dropped dead close to 90 or mid-90's but I reckon they could have lasted until 110 or so with a high raw vegan diet, maybe some bream or bass once in a while. The tobacco was the worst at cutting lifespan. It has medicinal value, but God never meant us to smoke the stuff.

DaveT wrote:While trying to live without money exchange now is possible, sort of, not completely, if you have land there's still land tax. While I do intend to live fairly primitive and grow my own food for health and to share with others, I also don't need to cut myself off from society, to travel and make friends, to help people elsewhere, all takes money, so making a decent amount is still necessary in order to stay in circulation in society.

Even my ancestors grew cash crops (in addition to the food crops and timber) for the reasons you gave.

DaveT wrote:And there will be ongoing expense in restocking occasionally with mineral products for the produce growing business. Since the soil is so washed out much has to be added back to get good production.
Well, the minerals in the bedrock will eventually percolate up into the soil given enough time. In forestry, they speak of "sustained yield", the amount of time required for those minerals to get back into the surface. But a truck farmer might need to import minerals, you need a faster recovery time than nature can provide you, short of moving off that land entirely for a generation.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Petros » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:00 am

There's a reason for leaving fields fallow in rotation in lands where move the huts and slashand burn is not a real option.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:24 pm

Petros wrote:No, all won't. Not even all who agree with most of your premises. There are too many variables and different preferences.

And bear in mind - live as healthily, as "sustainably", as environmentally soundly as you please: Millennia of experience shows that until all DO move out the cities and industrial blights will grow and spread and eat your woods and pave your clearing [and put up a parking lot in Paradise, if you recall that one.


Yes, the song is known to most of us. It is not just my premises, there can be whole lot shown for it with a great deal of information. And I see most won't come to it immediately. But there won't be much choice, almost all the world will not have the animal products available to them in a few decades. But there is too much showing that there is a healthier way without the animal products and processed foods to effectively counter that. Staying with civilization without change won't help but will just contribute to that loss of environments, and civilization cannot persist with that, in this limited world. And so a sustainable way of living, separate from that, is needed, with many coming to that.

Coming to way of subsistence without exchange of money is a worthy goal that there is time of transition needed for it. There will be some money still needed for taxes, I am aware of it, so I see that needs to be accommodated for owned land. But I do think of using a land trust for such a change, if that can work out.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 pm

baresoul wrote:...But there won't be much choice, almost all the world will not have the animal products available to them in a few decades. But there is too much showing that there is a healthier way without the animal products and processed foods to effectively counter that...


In the western deserts and short grass prairies of the US and similar lands elsewhere in the world, raising vegetables is only practical where you have a well or irrigation rights on some river bottomland.
The only way to commercially produce food in these vast waterless areas is by ranching or hunting. Granted, a family has to have some source of water for personal consumption, but I am making the case for the total inadequacy of water in sufficient quantities for truck farming vegetables in those arid regions. Sheep, goats, cattle, bison, deer, antelope are the primary clean animals such rangeland can support.
In some areas, it takes 100 acres of un-irrigated range land to feed one cow. Frankly goats are better suited to rough brush land.
I have seen a few pistachio orchards in the semi-desert of SE Arizona, but that's about it for arid plant production.
Well, I reckon you can make tequila out of the agave plants and eat the fruit of cactus you find in some of the deserts, but that is hardly a balanced diet.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:19 pm

DaveT wrote:... I will probably need an ice machine for hydrocooling lettuce with ice water. That's about $500 for an old one. Other than that. I think I have most everything needed to go for the salad production.


Dave, I was at a historic site in Kentucky a few years back and saw an old-time ice house.
Every time the pond froze in winter, they would cut blocks of ice out of the pond and store them in this massive stone building, covering the ice blocks with burlap, and then sawdust over that.
If it were cut into a hillside it would retain the coolness of the Earth through a hot summer.
The ice would last most of the summer for keeping vegetables cold.
You might try other more convenient methods than sawing pond ice, as long as the blocks of ice were big and solid.
A chainsaw would make the sawing easier than the old two-man saw method of yesterday, but if the ice were frozen in a mould, you'd need no sawing at all!
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:27 pm

Not to replace agricultural naturism, but sometimes one needs woods in all their richness to partake of true Biophilia.

In recent years, the Japanese practice of Shinrin-yoku (literally Forest Bathing) has reached the United States and Western world.
While touted as a new concept, it is something many folks have done for years without giving it a name.

Here's a quote from Outside Magazine (2012):
Shinrin-yoku, or forest bathing. Forest bathing is defined as making contact with and taking in the atmosphere of the forest.

What sets forest bathing apart from simply taking a walk in the forest is that we consciously take in the sights, sounds, smells,
and the whole experience, rather than allowing our minds to do the things they habitually do, like putting together a mental grocery list.

Results of a study of 280 subjects conducted in 2010 found that forest bathing was associated with lower levels of a stress indicator
called cortisol, lower pulse rate, and lower blood pressure. The participants of the study had decreased activity in the part of the
nervous system that activates when we are stressed and increased activity in the part of the nervous system that activates when we are relaxed.

Relaxing like this is crucial for good health if you consider the fact that chronic stress reduces immune function and makes us more prone to
depression, heart disease, and other disorders.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:09 am

Never saw it put like that. But thats what ive always done, walk the forest and observe nature. I walk out there and its like going home. All the familiar trees and creatures. Forest bathing. Immercing in it. And nude just enhances the connection with the earth.

As for ice, thats fine further north. But in TN we get just occasional short spells of cold, maybe enough to put a half inch of ice on a pond. And that only chances december through feb. And of course with produce harvest we need a dependable supply of cube ice to dump in the hydro cooling water. Once the world goes haywire we wont need to conform to the harvest rules, we'll just be supplying the locals with produce fresh and unwashed.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:30 pm

Dave,
My Tennessee kin have a spring house on the property, made with blocks of stone.
Currently they have a sheet metal roof, but I reckon it was originally cedar shake.
Inside the house was a wooden spring box with a lid.
For generations, we kept milk, butter and eggs cool, thanks to the 56 degree spring water.
No electricity needed, even through very hot summers!
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:30 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
baresoul wrote:...But there won't be much choice, almost all the world will not have the animal products available to them in a few decades. But there is too much showing that there is a healthier way without the animal products and processed foods to effectively counter that...


In the western deserts and short grass prairies of the US and similar lands elsewhere in the world, raising vegetables is only practical where you have a well or irrigation rights on some river bottomland.
The only way to commercially produce food in these vast waterless areas is by ranching or hunting. Granted, a family has to have some source of water for personal consumption, but I am making the case for the total inadequacy of water in sufficient quantities for truck farming vegetables in those arid regions. Sheep, goats, cattle, bison, deer, antelope are the primary clean animals such rangeland can support.
In some areas, it takes 100 acres of un-irrigated range land to feed one cow. Frankly goats are better suited to rough brush land.
I have seen a few pistachio orchards in the semi-desert of SE Arizona, but that's about it for arid plant production.
Well, I reckon you can make tequila out of the agave plants and eat the fruit of cactus you find in some of the deserts, but that is hardly a balanced diet.


Two things were being discussed, the betterment of living with sustainable ways apart from civilization with not so sustainable ways in that, and the healthiest way for us with having whole plant-based food. For the sustainability, I don't speak for moving to where there is not adequate water for sustainable living. I don't think that is good, but there are those who will still want to live in those arid areas, that's up to them. Sustainable ways will be with growing things and not using more land up for animals being bred to be used for human demand, which isn't as sustainable either. Most of these animals now are not in those arid areas, almost all the meat and animal products there are available are from animals held captive in very crowded factory farms. These are around, but not with windows for them to be seen, so you don't know from seeing it. There are video exposes of them still. And feed is brought to them which uses a lot more land than what land would be needed to feed everyone in the more direct and efficient way. This would be desirable as there is the healthiest way for having food possible with that. The sustainable way that is good would be for where there is land good for that, not for where water or resources are not there enough for that.

Deserts don't have to be exploited for there to be enough food for all. But where it can be vegetation for that should be growing.

Speaking of how good forest bathing will be for us will be good argument for me to use saying it is what the design for us would be, we could live that way.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:01 am

baresoul wrote:Two things were being discussed, the betterment of living with sustainable ways apart from civilization with not so sustainable ways in that, and the healthiest way for us with having whole plant-based food. For the sustainability, I don't speak for moving to where there is not adequate water for sustainable living. I don't think that is good, but there are those who will still want to live in those arid areas, that's up to them. Sustainable ways will be with growing things and not using more land up for animals being bred to be used for human demand, which isn't as sustainable either. Most of these animals now are not in those arid areas, almost all the meat and animal products there are available are from animals held captive in very crowded factory farms. These are around, but not with windows for them to be seen, so you don't know from seeing it. There are video exposes of them still. And feed is brought to them which uses a lot more land than what land would be needed to feed everyone in the more direct and efficient way. This would be desirable as there is the healthiest way for having food possible with that. The sustainable way that is good would be for where there is land good for that, not for where water or resources are not there enough for that.

Deserts don't have to be exploited for there to be enough food for all. But where it can be vegetation for that should be growing.


Arid grasslands and shrub steppes benefit from grazing animals. People have lived sustainably in these areas for thousands of years.
My desert friends couldn't imagine living anywhere else and I miss the desert like a long lost love.
My pastor lived near the river and could grow fruits, nuts and vegetables. To see the land along the river, you'd never know you were deep in the desert.
Desert ranchers could trade meat for his vegetables.
Pronghorn antelope cannot be fenced out, they go where they please, no ranch fence is too high.
When rangeland is managed properly, the yield is sustained decade after decade.
For the most part, land that can grow vegetables and grains should not be used for grazing.
I do believe that the best use of tall grass prairie is when managed for quail, deer, prairie chickens and bison, but without irrigation, even tall grass prairie is not suitable for vegetables.
I have seen cattle grazing on salt marsh near the coast, and you obviously can't grow tomatoes in a salt marsh.
Livestock has its place in sustainable agriculture.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:12 am

baresoul wrote:Speaking of how good forest bathing will be for us will be good argument for me to use saying it is what the design for us would be, we could live that way.


When I sit on a rock ledge looking west on a fine evening, watching the clouds drift past the sun; when I am on a mountain slope and I see a bear cub or a deer scampering along across my path, it turns my heart to the ONE who made all this. Smelling the aroma of white pine in Appalachia, perhaps the scent of balsam fir in the wilds of Michigan, it takes me someplace holy.

Sometimes it takes a day or two to get worldly cares off your chest, but in due time, you forget what day it is, forget who you are in the corporate chain of command, and then you start remembering...
who you really are: a child of God in the nearest thing we have to Paradise on this side of the Pearly Gates. There's a peace that settles your soul when God is free to speak to your heart.

And yes, in those places where I feel safe to shed my clothes, the experience of timeless joy settles even deeper.
Living as God intended in nature may be temporary in this modern world, but those moments are unforgettable, they are life-changing.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:25 am

Ramblinman wrote:
baresoul wrote:Two things were being discussed, the betterment of living with sustainable ways apart from civilization with not so sustainable ways in that, and the healthiest way for us with having whole plant-based food. For the sustainability, I don't speak for moving to where there is not adequate water for sustainable living. I don't think that is good, but there are those who will still want to live in those arid areas, that's up to them. Sustainable ways will be with growing things and not using more land up for animals being bred to be used for human demand.

Deserts don't have to be exploited for there to be enough food for all. But where it can be vegetation for that it should be growing.


Arid grasslands and shrub steppes benefit from grazing animals. People have lived sustainably in these areas for thousands of years.
My desert friends couldn't imagine living anywhere else and I miss the desert like a long lost love.
My pastor lived near the river and could grow fruits, nuts and vegetables. To see the land along the river, you'd never know you were deep in the desert.
Desert ranchers could trade meat for his vegetables.
Pronghorn antelope cannot be fenced out, they go where they please, no ranch fence is too high.
When rangeland is managed properly, the yield is sustained decade after decade.
For the most part, land that can grow vegetables and grains should not be used for grazing.
I do believe that the best use of tall grass prairie is when managed for quail, deer, prairie chickens and bison, but without irrigation, even tall grass prairie is not suitable for vegetables.
I have seen cattle grazing on salt marsh near the coast, and you obviously can't grow tomatoes in a salt marsh.
Livestock has its place in sustainable agriculture.


Living along a river would have water available, it would not be the same as anywhere in a desert. Still, that way wouldn't handle lots and lots of people even if they found the most sustainable way to live, people will need to be very spaced out from one another. There are also environmentalists and those caring for the environments that disagree that grazing animals that you use are benefiting grasslands and steppes. These are not the animals that your meat and animal products that you buy are coming from, anyway, but that minority of the grazing animals out there, along with where feed is grown for the huge majority of the animals in the factory farms that are constantly being bred in huge numbers, are very disruptive to the ecosystems that were there all along before, and many species have disappeared in places from that. Nothing in the natural order of this world is benefiting from the presence of human civilization or the animals being used for the humans present there. Ecosystems could really benefit from being left alone from human use. We don't have to use everything in the world, it is not there for that. And where vegetation would be grown for human use, if this was all we used, it would be enough for us, a lot more of humanity than the way we have it with many people left starving.
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