You can’t legislate morality?!

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:38 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:There is a difference between imputed righteousness (being forgiven) and the ongoing work of sanctification that brings us closer by degrees to what Peter described in II Peter chapter 1.


Back to requesting that before we throw around the H word, we better define our terms.


I am getting the impression that I am being accused of using the word "heresy" in this quotation.
Please keep in mind that I was quoted and your dispute is with someone who quoted me and then inserted the word "heresy" in his reply to my own words.

I allow for the possibility that some people might have a version of the "sinless perfection" doctrine that is so perverted as to be a damnable heresy, others might hold to a form of this doctrine that is merely a hindrance.

If we address specific teachings about "perfection" then we are less likely to be talking past one another.


Accusing you of Heresy? Not here.

I was just trying to get people involved to define their terms rather than just tossing out the accusation. Especially as we've seen, there is a wide swath on what the beliefs are.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:47 pm

With all the warnings in Scripture to not judge, I am really, really, really, really cautious to say nothing more than I disagree as long as the beliefs fall within the generally accepted orthodoxy.

My standards start at the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed. Summarize the Gospel in just a few lines. They define who God the Father, Son and Spirit are, etc.

Personally, returning to 1 John 4...

1 John 4:1-6 wrote:4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.



4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5
They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


My feeling is we restrict things too much when we start crying heresy when those we accuse fall within the bounds of verse 2.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:48 pm

A problem, of course, is that humans being as we are, one can proclaim Christ, and I can believe [though I am not sure we are bound to believe] that the Spirit hasd a role in the affirmation, but in the next or even the same breath we can affirm this and deny that and construct such sandcastles and thorny labyrinths as invite from one quarter or another crieds of heresy.

I personally prefer to take heresy in its basic sense as the difference of opinion that makes horse races and understand that genuine Christians - meself included] can be plain wronk, while non-Christians, even genuine wolves, may on occasion be more correct than am I.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:26 am

Ramblinman If I taught a doctrine that was so debilitating in its impact that people under my tutelage were not trusting Christ for salvation, that would be a damnable heresy, not merely an impediment.

If the doctrine described was somewhat sort of based upon some truth, then I think that would be considered heresy, but if was without truth then it would be apostasy. I think.

In Him
Ron :cross:
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:59 am

Can one be apostate without walking out of the tent and denying Christ?

Heresy one needs to stick with Christ - or pretend to do so.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:26 am

bn2bnude wrote: Accusing you of Heresy? Not here.


Again, I did not use the word heresy in my original posts. Someone who quoted me did. I finally brought it up later only after you attempted to quote me twice using a word that someone else used.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:36 am

MoNatureMan wrote:Ramblinman If I taught a doctrine that was so debilitating in its impact that people under my tutelage were not trusting Christ for salvation, that would be a damnable heresy, not merely an impediment.

If the doctrine described was somewhat sort of based upon some truth, then I think that would be considered heresy, but if was without truth then it would be apostasy. I think.

In Him
Ron :cross:


Ron, if I said that God did not exist, that is such an obvious departure from scripture that it doesn't fool too many people.

However, the more my teachings mimic the gospel while repudiating the essentials about Christ, the more effective my deception would be.

I have often had better luck poisoning varmints by mixing the poison in with some of their favorite food than a straight dose of poison.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:52 am

bn2bnude wrote:...
My feeling is we restrict things too much when we start crying heresy when those we accuse fall within the bounds of verse 2.


I think we can all find doctrines that we do not understand perfectly. Is that heresy? I do not think so.
Unless heresy is simply a synonym for anything we do not understand, no matter how inconsequential.

In my own house of worship, we have position statements beyond matters of Christology, but as you do, we can agree to disagree with other congregations as long as they have not defined "Christ" totally beyond any semblance of the Messiah preached by Peter and Paul.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:24 am

Ramblinman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote: Accusing you of Heresy? Not here.


Again, I did not use the word heresy in my original posts. Someone who quoted me did. I finally brought it up later only after you attempted to quote me twice using a word that someone else used.


I agree, I just wanted the belief in question defined before being condemned.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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