You can’t legislate morality?!

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:44 am

I can learn more from a sinner who repents and has learned a closer walk with Christ...
than someone who claims perfection because he has never been caught in the act...
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby jochanaan » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:43 pm

We are all sinners. Many of us are repentant sinners--but we were sinners at first. Salvation from this sin comes in many stages. When we give ourselves to Jesus, He takes away the guilt of our sins in a moment. Praise His Name! But the habits of sin must also be changed, and for that He uses our cooperation, effort and dedication. I think, although I have no Bible passages to support this thought, that if He were to take away our sin habits in a moment, to untangle our lower-nature thoughts from our Godly thoughts, it would destroy us; and He does not wish to destroy nor enslave, but to rebuild. Perhaps the Gospel can also be summed up in His words to the woman caught in adultery: "Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more."

(This is the truth behind the "doctrine of holiness" preached by the Nazarenes other "holiness" churches. Salvation is done the moment we come to Jesus; but the changing of old bad habits for good new ones takes time, courage and strength. I am glad that He gives us all those things as we ask! But it doesn't happen all at once, no matter how many times that's preached.)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:22 am

jochanaan wrote:...(This is the truth behind the "doctrine of holiness" preached by the Nazarenes other "holiness" churches. Salvation is done the moment we come to Jesus; but the changing of old bad habits for good new ones takes time, courage and strength. I am glad that He gives us all those things as we ask! But it doesn't happen all at once, no matter how many times that's preached.)


Yes, I have heard people teach (without evidence from scripture or everyday life) the instantaneous cessation of all sin with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a state of "sinless perfection" as they put it.

Scripture provides evidence for a more gradual process that many denominations call "sanctification". I won't attempt an exhaustive treatment, but I commend to your attention: II Peter chapter 1. Nothing instant about the sort of transformation described in that chapter!

I am not teaching a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" approach. Sanctification is certainly a work of the Holy Spirit. Peter clearly teaches that we cooperate in our edification. I can compare it to saying grace over the supper table. We would not dream of failing to ask God's blessing on what we are about to eat, but God does not put the spoon in our mouth.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:16 pm

Ramblinman
Yes, I have heard people teach (without evidence from scripture or everyday life) the instantaneous cessation of all sin with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a state of "sinless perfection" as they put it.

I have also heard that teaching claiming sinless perfection from the time of accepting Christ.

That is another example of heresy.

You can easily make the case that we are sinless before God at time of salvation, but sinless in the flesh as we walk in this world - no way.

If you call a person that believes they no longer sin a fool and a heretic you will probably see unrighteous anger (sin) appear.

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:07 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:Ramblinman
Yes, I have heard people teach (without evidence from scripture or everyday life) the instantaneous cessation of all sin with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a state of "sinless perfection" as they put it.

I have also heard that teaching claiming sinless perfection from the time of accepting Christ.

That is another example of heresy.

Although I don't believe that I do not sin, I do believe that I am counted as righteous. Tossing around the H word without well defining terms is a bit unfair.

MoNatureMan wrote:You can easily make the case that we are sinless before God at time of salvation, but sinless in the flesh as we walk in this world - no way.

So, at the time of accepting Christ, what sins are forgiven? My understanding is past, present and future.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:13 pm

bn2bnude wrote:...So, at the time of accepting Christ, what sins are forgiven? My understanding is past, present and future.


There is a difference between imputed righteousness (being forgiven) and the ongoing work of sanctification that brings us closer by degrees to what Peter described in II Peter chapter 1.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:18 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:...So, at the time of accepting Christ, what sins are forgiven? My understanding is past, present and future.


There is a difference between imputed righteousness (being forgiven) and the ongoing work of sanctification that brings us closer by degrees to what Peter described in II Peter chapter 1.


Back to requesting that before we throw around the H word, we better define our terms.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:56 pm

My error.
I am familiar with the doctrine we were discussing and sometimes forget that not all are.

Anyway to clarify.
Definition of heresy is taking a truth too far.

I think we can all agree that all of our (Christian) sins are forgiven, but we at this time we are still living in the flesh in this fallen world and we commit sins.
There are so many Scriptural references concerning this. I can't see how anyone can say that they no longer commit sin and are perfect in their flesh. Paul clearly talked of waring against the flesh.

John wrote:
1 John 1: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Him
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:39 am

MoNatureMan wrote:My error.
I am familiar with the doctrine we were discussing and sometimes forget that not all are.

Anyway to clarify.
Definition of heresy is taking a truth too far.

Actually Heresy wasn't what I wanted you to define. I think, however, you did a good job below.

MoNatureMan wrote:I think we can all agree that all of our (Christian) sins are forgiven, but we at this time we are still living in the flesh in this fallen world and we commit sins.
There are so many Scriptural references concerning this. I can't see how anyone can say that they no longer commit sin and are perfect in their flesh. Paul clearly talked of waring against the flesh.

John wrote:
1 John 1: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Him
Ron

Putting 1 John in context, however, you might not come to quite the same conclusion.

Wikipedia has a summary of the holiness movement which is what I think you are discussing. I'd like better definition of what they believe that you don't agree with.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby natman » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:05 am

MoNatureMan wrote:Anyway to clarify.
Definition of heresy is taking a truth too far.


It can also be not taking the truth far enough.

Heresy is any perversion or distortion of the Truth, intended or unintended.

After studying as many denominations as I could think of, I have come to the conclusion that EVERY denomination, even my own, has it's own "heretical" teachings and doctrine. There is none that are pure and true to Scripture.

And I am CERTAIN that some of my own understandings are heretical to some extent. However, I am constantly praying, as we all should, for the Holy Spirit to shine His light on the areas where we miss the mark and to draw us closer and closer to the Truth.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:09 am

Nathan, I think some folks are not aware that there are degrees of heresy. There is damnable heresy and, as you suggest, there is heresy that impedes our walk with Christ, but does not terminate that walk.

The Catholic Church speaks of cardinal and venial sin and I don't know if you find such terminology helpful. It is not in the Bible, but neither is there word-for-word correspondence anytime you translate a passage from one language to another.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:15 am

bn2bnude wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:...So, at the time of accepting Christ, what sins are forgiven? My understanding is past, present and future.


There is a difference between imputed righteousness (being forgiven) and the ongoing work of sanctification that brings us closer by degrees to what Peter described in II Peter chapter 1.


Back to requesting that before we throw around the H word, we better define our terms.


I am getting the impression that I am being accused of using the word "heresy" in this quotation.
Please keep in mind that I was quoted and your dispute is with someone who quoted me and then inserted the word "heresy" in his reply to my own words.

I allow for the possibility that some people might have a version of the "sinless perfection" doctrine that is so perverted as to be a damnable heresy, others might hold to a form of this doctrine that is merely a hindrance.

If we address specific teachings about "perfection" then we are less likely to be talking past one another.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby natman » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:35 pm

Ramblinman wrote:Nathan, I think some folks are not aware that there are degrees of heresy. There is damnable heresy and, as you suggest, there is heresy that impedes our walk with Christ, but does not terminate that walk.

The Catholic Church speaks of cardinal and venial sin and I don't know if you find such terminology helpful. It is not in the Bible, but neither is there word-for-word correspondence anytime you translate a passage from one language to another.


Having grown up Catholic and since becoming Protestant (Southern Baptist), looking back I often wondered how the Catholic church derived the two concepts of venial and mortal sin. I assumed that "venial" sin were those sins that could be confessed and repented of, whereas "mortal" sin were those sins that lead to total spiritual death. Somehow, I do not get that impression when I read of "sin that leads to death" in 1 John 5. There is sin that leads to physical death, after which there is no longer the opportunity to confess nor repent. However, as far as I can see, there is only one sin which, in and of itself, leads to spiritual death, which is the blaspheme (denial) of the Holy Spirit.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:01 pm

natman wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:Nathan, I think some folks are not aware that there are degrees of heresy. There is damnable heresy and, as you suggest, there is heresy that impedes our walk with Christ, but does not terminate that walk.

The Catholic Church speaks of cardinal and venial sin and I don't know if you find such terminology helpful. It is not in the Bible, but neither is there word-for-word correspondence anytime you translate a passage from one language to another.


Having grown up Catholic and since becoming Protestant (Southern Baptist), looking back I often wondered how the Catholic church derived the two concepts of venial and mortal sin. I assumed that "venial" sin were those sins that could be confessed and repented of, whereas "mortal" sin were those sins that lead to total spiritual death. Somehow, I do not get that impression when I read of "sin that leads to death" in 1 John 5. There is sin that leads to physical death, after which there is no longer the opportunity to confess nor repent. However, as far as I can see, there is only one sin which, in and of itself, leads to spiritual death, which is the blaspheme (denial) of the Holy Spirit.


Nathan, I think that heresy that involves mortal sin is more than committing the unpardonable sin.
If I taught a doctrine that was so debilitating in its impact that people under my tutelage were not trusting Christ for salvation, that would be a damnable heresy, not merely an impediment.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Mikeytosh » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:13 pm

I agree with you, bottom line moral values are critical to any society. If there are no such values such a society will self destruct.

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"Trust in the Lord With all your heart & lean not to your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path" Prov. 3 vs.5
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