Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby jasenj1 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:44 am

Bare_Truth wrote:So I see these as essentially the same:
The ship is sinking!
I can't stop it!
So I'll just grab a few goodies off the buffet and go to my assigned life boat seat.
Ah. But that last line reveals the problem. Rather than being selfish and grabbing a few goodies, as Christians we are called to search the ship for others and escort them to the life boats.
- Jasen.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby natman » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:50 am

Bare_Truth wrote:With the country in need of CPR...


I don't think we are a country in need of CPR. Rather, we are a country in need of REVIVAL... turning to and back to God.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Petros » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:37 am

This discussion is gradually taking me back to my Atlantic crossings discussed elsewhere.

New York to Southampton [it feels more natural going that direction] starts out hustle and bustle, crew and passengers tripping over one another, confusion working toward getting the vessel out of the harbor.

Then a week +/- of quiet sameness - meals and deckchairs and cleaning the stateroom and painting the railings proceed in a leisurely cycle.

But then, as we sight land, hustle and bustle and everybody doing a different job, all essential for the docking.

Think early church, mid period [revivals can be the meals?], and end days - where different ones will have often confusigly different assigned tasks.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:13 am

bn2bnude wrote: Everything is redeemable by God.
It may depend on what you exactly mean by "everything" and "redeemable". If God has granted a being free moral agency, and that being irrevocably chooses not to be redeemed then it would appear that by that being's choice they become unredeemable. Hence
Jude wrote: 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
I could agree with your statement in the sense of "everything is redeemable IF .............. "
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:20 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote: Everything is redeemable by God.
It may depend on what you exactly mean by "everything" and "redeemable". If God has granted a being free moral agency, and that being irrevocably chooses not to be redeemed then it would appear that by that being's choice they become unredeemable. Hence
Jude wrote: 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
I could agree with your statement in the sense of "everything is redeemable IF .............. "


I am saying that a powerful (ALL POWERFUL) God can redeem EVERYTHING.

Does that mean everything will be redeemed? Maybe not but that is a different issue.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Petros » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:09 pm

And of course an omnipotent One can - and will - choose what anything out of everything to include.

Including choosing to equip his creation with the freedom to choose. to
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby vycna » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:30 pm

We are to take responsibility for what happens in this world, not to do just whatever we might with a position that it doesn't matter, if we are not going to be here for whatever comes of what we do. There is a clear link of depending on the extensive industry using animals for meat that many of us would have with problems such as greenhouse gases leading to global warming, more than it comes from other things, high demand of land, water, and more resources more than would otherwise be needed, harming natural environments more from that, along with greater exposure of ourselves to bad health from many things involved with it.

Christ is coming to remove his faithful and true followers before the great tribulations and his judgment he is bringing, I am quite sure, but for any of us not doing things we should, and doing things bringing more harm in this world, I think would be giving an account of the wrongs. And his way is shown in visions for the future to no longer include the harms and suffering and misery of his creatures any more than for any his kingdom, with death and killing to be done away.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:00 pm

vycna wrote:We are to take responsibility for what happens in this world,
I would like to ask where you think that doctrine is established. If you mean that we individually should take responsibility I do not see how that can be since we do not have the authority to deal with it. I think it possible that you have simply overstated the case. It is of course our responsibility, or at least meritorious, for us to be concerned.
"Eze 9:
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 ¶And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."
vycna wrote:There is a clear link of depending on the extensive industry using animals for meat that many of us would have with problems such as greenhouse gases leading to global warming,
Well not to start a cat fight of each citing our own arguments and "authorities" I really doubt the the link you refer to is clear, especially given that there gifted scientist who have spoken on each side of the matter and the politicans have their fingers in the matter and I have never seen the politicians do anything that I could easily call "clear:

vycna wrote:Christ is coming........for any of us not doing things we should, and doing things bringing more harm in this world, I think would be giving an account of the wrongs. And his way...... no longer include the harms and suffering and misery of his creatures......
I will not argue against the notion that God opposes unnecessary harm suffering an misery. However, in the long run I believe how we treat one another is foremost to him.

It took him only 6 days to take the world from a waste to a whole environment with a beautiful garden filled with life. The spiritual well being of his children, whom he does not want to loose to the wiles of the evil one, is I think vastly of more concern to him than the condition of the planet. per se.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby pipermac » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:29 pm

jochanaan wrote:The one thing we can know from the Bible is that Jesus will return! All else is conjecture, especially guesses about dates. The pre-trib teaching especially has no support in the Bible. I find it a dangerous teaching for that reason and because many have apparently based their own faith on it. What will happen if we find ourselves in the Great Tribulation? If one has based one's life road on being taken away, won't it be a great challenge to one's faith (to say the very least!)?


I am afraid the American church is in for some very rough roads ahead, particularly if God decides the judge the church's apostasy before Jesus returns. We know, from the Old Testament, that God judged His people when they had strayed too far from His Word and laws. Does the church think it is exempt? God judges the household of faith FIRST, before He judges the rest. Our faith could be in for some serious testing before it is all over, and Jesus returns.

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

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1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby jochanaan » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:36 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
vycna wrote:We are to take responsibility for what happens in this world,
I would like to ask where you think that doctrine is established.
Genesis 1:28 records God giving Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world and its creatures, and Jesus taught that those who have dominion must serve those they rule. The Torah sets up the Sabbath year so that farmland might rest, establishing the principle of caring for the land.

As for global warming, my sister knows some of the scientists who developed computer models that predicted global climate change. She "leans left" but is too principled to distort facts for any agenda. She is completely convinced global warming is real, and can cite data and studies. I trust her more than any politician, especially politicians who may have accepted contributions from energy corporations.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:31 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Bare_Truth wrote:
vycna wrote:We are to take responsibility for what happens in this world,
I would like to ask where you think that doctrine is established.
Genesis 1:28 records God giving Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world and its creatures, and Jesus taught that those who have dominion must serve those they rule. The Torah sets up the Sabbath year so that farmland might rest, establishing the principle of caring for the land.

As for global warming, my sister knows some of the scientists who developed computer models that predicted global climate change. She "leans left" but is too principled to distort facts for any agenda. She is completely convinced global warming is real, and can cite data and studies. I trust her more than any politician, especially politicians who may have accepted contributions from energy corporations.


While we ought to do what good we can, I think that an operative scriptural principle here is perhaps reflected in the theme found in:
John 15:
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

That is to say that on this world we are not running the show. We can have some small influence in countries where there are enough of us so as to influence the general morality ethics and world view, but I think that those times are gone. At most we can try to reach some, but the world is not our show. So if the majority are hell bent on destroying the world and they succeed it will not be our fault. I think we will run the world one day, but not yet. On that basis I say that we should carry out our commission and not be adopting responsibilities that are not ours. Our plate is full enough already!

As for global warming:
-- Maybe it is happening and maybe it is not. That should be an answerable question so long as the investigators are not biased or pressured and for now I think they are.
-- if it is happening, one would want to know if it was a cyclical natural event or not.
-- if it is happening one needs to know how much it is driven by mankind (anthropogenic) and how much a natural occurrence.
-- if any of it is anthropogenic then how much? and will it self-limit? and at what level? and what are the mechanisms?
-- if it is natural and dangerous can humans alter it as opposed to having to put up with it.
-- if we are to take action, then who profits by how much for the actions we take. If this is a world event for the whole population's survival nobody should be getting filthy rich or powerful from the effort. That includes the U.N. any One World Government, any nation state governments, Hollywood by hyping disaster moves, etc.

If we as Christians have any duty with respect to Global warming it is primarily to push for Open and honest evaluation of the issue including tracking where the money comes from for the research, urging complete honesty without people building reputations on hype and balderdash and honest investigation to reconcile disparate views. In short, what we must first call for is honest unbiased good stewardship. And as a retired college professor I can assure you that everything that comes published from our universities these days is infested from top to bottom with balderdash! Generally aimed at getting lucrative grants prestige and advancement by whatever means. Our current battle over global warming is nothing more that a battle between two cults. And one way or another the rest of us will suffer for it. It is just that we do not know which side is right about what factors.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby natman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:As for global warming:
-- Maybe it is happening and maybe it is not. That should be an answerable question so long as the investigators are not biased or pressured and for now I think they are.


Based on several articles I have read, I agree 100% (see http://www.technologyreview.com/news/40 ... bombshell/ in which the writer points out the algorithms used by Michael Mann were defective and would have given a "hockey stick" regardless of the data.)

Bare_Truth wrote:-- if it is happening one needs to know how much it is driven by mankind (anthropogenic) and how much a natural occurrence.


Exactly. The numbers I looked at indicated that the ozone depleting gases generated by one volcanic explosion are hundreds of times more than those produce by all of mankind, even at our current population level.

This is not taking into account all other natural generators such as plant decay, both on land and in the oceans, methane pocket releases etc.

Bare_Truth wrote:-- if we are to take action, then who profits by how much for the actions we take. If this is a world event for the whole population's survival nobody should be getting filthy rich or powerful from the effort. That includes the U.N. any One World Government, any nation state governments, Hollywood by hyping disaster moves, etc.


And especially the likes of one person, such as Al Gore, who is mysteriously silent on the matter lately.

Further, who should take the lead. I believe that the US has ALREADY done so by taking every "reasonable" effort to make our cars, generators and petroleum production as "green" as possible. And we have exported our technology to other countries for THEIR benefit. However, there are countries such as China, India, Russia and many throughout Eastern Europe and Africa that are not even trying to clean up their act. We cannot afford to pay for every other nation to come up to our standards. They need some sweat equity in the process.
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby jasenj1 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:41 pm

I'm too lazy to look up verses, but I'll throw this out there: The book of Revelation describes many environmental disasters - death of fish, destruction of trees, sun burning people. Perhaps global warming is anthropogenic and is part of the judgement Man brings on himself. Mankind will of course deny these disasters are judgements from God and instead blame CO2 emissions, deforestation, etc. Man will not realize that he is the instrument of his own judgement.

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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby prairieboy » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:43 am

Bare_Truth wrote:That is to say that on this world we are not running the show. We can have some small influence in countries where there are enough of us so as to influence the general morality ethics and world view, but I think that those times are gone. At most we can try to reach some, but the world is not our show. So if the majority are hell bent on destroying the world and they succeed it will not be our fault. I think we will run the world one day, but not yet. On that basis I say that we should carry out our commission and not be adopting responsibilities that are not ours. Our plate is full enough already!


We are allowing them to run the show. God gave man stewardship of the earth. Granted that we are now of another kingdom, but Jesus has given us tremendous authority, and charged us to "love our neighbour." How can one love their neighbour and not do something about the neighbour's destructive tendencies? Not enough of us to influence a nation? Do you think that William Wilberforce would agree? Would Ghandi? Rosa Parks? Or Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Ask Hannah Taylor who at age 8 started the Ladybug Foundation for charitable works. She started at the age of 5, not trying to save the world, but to make a difference where she could.

I agree that it looks futile, but is it really? We will never know unless we start. Now I am not about to start lobbying regarding global warming, but there are things that I could be doing.

Oh yeah, another man that made a difference, conceived outside of marriage, forced to spend his early years in exile, then raised "on the wrong side of the tracks." Only one man, just a carpenter's son, but in three years he changed the world for ever. And he lives in me. What would I see done around me if I gave Him some freedom to act through me?
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Re: Perversion of Soon Return of Christ doctrine

Postby Petros » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:26 am

Herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye

bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

We are the shepherds, cowboys, field hands, blacksmiths, cooks, maids, woodcxutters. We do not own the farm / ranch / estate / factory, and we don't have the big picture. We do the jobs the boss assigns us, and it works.

We cannot, dare not say, we have the power and the know-how, we will step in and fix it. Got enough people who think that way already.

But neither can we, dare we say, we have no power, it is all futile. I may not have the key to open or the seal to shut, but if I am only set to muck out the smallest stable I am part of a mighty engine.
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