Christian moral values vs societal and political moral value

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Christian moral values vs societal and political moral value

Postby MoNatureMan » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:33 pm

This is my latest letter. It applies primarily to the United States but principals are global.

Christian moral values vs societal and political moral values

As elections are coming around in the United States again this year, I am reminded that there is a great war against Christian Moral Values and Christianity in general. I am not talking about things like smoking or tattoos that a case could be made showing them against Scripture or against man made rules that have no place in Scripture. I am talking about things that are clearly against the Word of God.

First lets look at a couple of Christian moral values, how they compare to morality today and what Scripture says.

In early America, General George Washington gave a command that the using of God’s name in vain, was not to be done under his command. Going into the 1960s, curse words could not be used on radio or television. Compare that to today, the vilest of words are commonly heard on radio, television, and by people we know. God’s name is used in cursing so much today that many of us don’t even hear it anymore. We have been desensitized. The third commandment from God stated ‘Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain’.

America and the world could not believe the horror and brutality of Nazi Germany. The acts of Hitler stunned the world. Yet today in America, abortion goes on. The killing of innocent babies is ignored. Even those that call themselves Christian don’t care, and pastors don’t get involved, claiming abortion is a politically sensitive issue. Scripture is clear that a baby in the womb is human and killing one is murder. Exodus 20:13 ‘Thou shalt not murder’.

For centuries traditional marriage (one man, one woman till death does part) was the Biblically accepted standard for society. During the 1800s divorces affected only about 3 percent of marriages, however today over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. Prior to the 1970s homosexuality was considered immoral and unnatural, however today homosexuality is becoming normalized. According to the Bible, God’s plan was for 1 man and 1 woman to form a family. Mark 10:6-8 "God 'made them male and female... and the two will become one flesh." Jesus spoke about divorce. Matthew 19:8 ”Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.” Both the Old and New Testament condemn homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” Romans 1:26-27 “For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men...”

All of these issues have clear Bible reference and are clearly Christian Moral issues, however our society calls them ‘Political Issues’.

The 'god of this world' has created diversions and told us lies. By calling Biblical Issues, Political Issues, many Christians have been silenced. Claiming ‘Separation of Church and State’ was part of early America and even part of the Constitution has added to the deception. However when you look at the Constitution of the United States you find ‘Separation of Church and State’ missing. Common references to Thomas Jefferson and his call for separation of church and state are perverted. President Thomas Jefferson gave approval to hold ‘Christian Church Services’ in the capital, and as President ordered a military band to play at them. Another deception is that Thomas Jefferson hated God, saying he rewrote the Bible, taking words out he didn’t want. The truth of the ‘Jefferson Bible’ is, Thomas Jefferson took all the words of Jesus and put them into a book, to be used as an evangelistic tool. The real name for the book is ‘The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth’. What he did, said, and believed is not what we hear about him today. History has been rewritten .

We must stop accepting the lies of Satan. When God clearly says things are wrong, they are wrong, they are evil. Saying that they are political issues, is denying the truth of God’s Word, and literally siding with the devil and his deceptive lies. Dietrich Bonhoeffer said it well - “Silence in the face of evil, is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak, is to speak. Not to act, is to act.” When God’s Word is clear about something being right or wrong, we need to support that view in word and deed. That includes in the church and from the pulpit. That includes what we do and say in our personal life. That even includes how we vote and how we spend our money.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

In His service
Ron :cross:
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Losgatos » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:45 pm

AMEN !
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Hebrews 4:13
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby nudist2011 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:09 am

AMEN,AMEN.

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I'm a Methodist nudist. Became a nudist April 6, 2011
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby ezduzit » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:12 pm

:like: :like: :like:
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:00 pm

MoNatureMan....

I've got to ask this question... What Kingdom fruit do you expect to see from your article?
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:15 pm

I agree with you that the values of Jesus are under attack in this country. However, I would add a few other items to the list that you have presented:

Failing to hold the big banks and the folks that supposedly run them accountable forr their criminal actions against the economic livelihood of many American citizens.
Allowing a culture of corruption, nepotism and financial influence to grow in our government at the federal, state and local levels, as the voting records of many representatives and Senators show. (For one chilling example, look up ALEC, the American Legislative Executive Council.)
Allowing corporations to spend virtually unlimited amounts of money to proclaim messagest that may or may not be true in order to influence supposedly free and fair elections.
Treating immigrants, legal or otherwise, as political footballs and not as human beings, in direct opposition to Biblical principles.
Failing to exercise proper stewardship over the Earth and thus perverting God's command to "have dominion over" it. (Genesis 1:28)
Failing to condemn strongly any continuing prejudice against non-Caucasian races.

And there are many, many more examples of our national neglect of God's principles, which all come down to a failure to "love our neighbors as ourselves."
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Losgatos » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:03 pm

:like: :like:
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Hebrews 4:13
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby MoNatureMan » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:10 pm

bn2bnude wrote:I've got to ask this question... What Kingdom fruit do you expect to see from your article?


Not 100% sure of your question.
If referring to jewels in crown - I don't expect any - we are all unworthy.

If referring to the here and now - I think the letter speaks for itself. There has been much legalism and distraction on issues. We need to stand for what Scripture is clear about and not do as the Pharasies.
Example: For one we can take drinking. Being a drunkard is unscriptural, while the Bible does not speak against a sip of wine. Some churches even use wine in Communion. I personally do not drink, but I do not feel Scripturally correct to say that all drinking is sin and demand total absanance of all. Yes it can and in many cases is the door to drunkeness, however food is also the door to being 400 pounds.

Another part is - Christians (and the church) in America have been generally following the world. When Christians and the church follow the world instead of being the leaders in righteousness, the society goes down hill as ours is today. I am aware and I preach that our only way to heaven is the righteousness of Christ. But are we to allow or even help our society be more and more unholy? God forbid!

In Him
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:38 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I've got to ask this question... What Kingdom fruit do you expect to see from your article?


Not 100% sure of your question.
If referring to jewels in crown - I don't expect any - we are all unworthy.

Not sure I buy into the "jewels in crown" thing... I would argue that our adoption into God's family makes us worthy.

MoNatureMan wrote:If referring to the here and now - I think the letter speaks for itself. There has been much legalism and distraction on issues. We need to stand for what Scripture is clear about and not do as the Pharasies.
Example: For one we can take drinking. Being a drunkard is unscriptural, while the Bible does not speak against a sip of wine. Some churches even use wine in Communion. I personally do not drink, but I do not feel Scripturally correct to say that all drinking is sin and demand total absanance of all. Yes it can and in many cases is the door to drunkeness, however food is also the door to being 400 pounds.

Another part is - Christians (and the church) in America have been generally following the world. When Christians and the church follow the world instead of being the leaders in righteousness, the society goes down hill as ours is today. I am aware and I preach that our only way to heaven is the righteousness of Christ. But are we to allow or even help our society be more and more unholy? God forbid!

In Him
Ron :cross:

As I read it, I don't see any "expected results" if you will, more just a prescription.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:05 am

bn2bnude wrote:As I read it, I don't see any "expected results" if you will, more just a prescription.
"Perhaps the two of you are talking past each other a bit" Your question to Ron is sort of an honest, "Why bother, what is it going to fix if we again elevate christian moral values in this country" (not trying to put words in your mouth but attempting phrase it more obviously". It is a fair enough question to ask, or perhaps it would be better phrased "Why do you want to go to all that trouble, what will elevating Christian morals accomplish for our society"

Well for starters, I think it would reduce fear. I would not be wondering about jack booted militarized police carrying out a swat raid on my house at 2:00 in the morning because they have the wrong address for where they think drugs are being distributed from.

Would that be a worthwhile result?

Or how about not having to worry about a son or daughter being taught in public school that homosexuality of either type is normal and ok, and just as healthy as heterosexuality.

Or how about not having my child taught that choosing to have promiscuous premarital sex is not going to be a problem for later life relationships, and that there is no great difference if we have committed exclusive relationships for life or not

Or how about teaching that life is so very valuable that we must not take or endanger or degrade it carelessly, so going on a killing spree is so repugnant and depraved that we should not do it. and if we do those things then it is we that are depraved and evil and we should aspire to something higher than that. That kindness and care for one another is the right way.

Or there really are such things as right and wrong, good and evil. honesty and lies and we all need to work for the first element of those pairs.

-------------------------
As I see it from my 69 year perspective. It was better before, and the atheistic humanist morality that is replacing Christianity is a different from those isms. It is strange that the statist mentality insists on "continuing education" for all sorts of professions but they have totally lost the once a week for an hour or more continuing education program of Christiaity that seeks to connect us to something greater than ourselves and teach us the ethical rules that bring peace harmony and an environment conducive to prosperity and also practical ways to carry out those objectives. I have not seen an atheist church or humanist church that provides such frequent "booster shots" of "continuing education" in the moral/ethical art of being a good citizen of society.

Now even if my idea should catch on, and such moral continuing education be instituted among the atheists and humanists, they will still of course be lacking the help of the holy spirit, but it would be a start at least. I am surprised that no one seems to have noticed that the compulsory church attendance laws in the earliest colonies were as much instruction in being a good citizen as they were about worshipping God through rites and rituals. And of course God only put 4 commandments in directly about how to treat him and 6 about how to treat each other. So just maybe he saw where it was that we were going to need the most guidance and encouragement.

Bare Truth
P.S. feel free to critique the presentation of my thesis, This is the first time I have tried to express it, and I want to hone and polish it up a bit.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby prairieboy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:40 am

I just read two articles regarding this in the last few days. One is When Will America Finally Remove Our Modern-Day Pharaoh? at http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/45208-when-will-america-finally-remove-our-modern-day-pharaoh?showall=&start=1. The other is Observing All Things at http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/observing_all.

Many Christians, North American Christians, feel that we are entitled to a life devoid of effort or struggle. Therefore we choose not to challenge those things that our neighbours feel strongly on, namely those things that the media trumpets loud and long. We then quit reading the Bible because a) it takes effort, and b) it makes us uncomfortable. Even though a large proportion of Americans think of themselves as Christian, the percentage that can actually discuss the Bible intelligently would be much lower. Many don't even believe basic doctrines such as salvation through faith in Christ alone, believing in universalism, or that all religions lead to God. Is it any wonder that they will buy into almost anything?
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:39 am

jochanaan -

to much to say and being said in here for me to feel I should weigh in. But one of your points:

"Failing to condemn strongly any continuing prejudice against non-Caucasian races"

Passing very lightly over the very complex questions like "what exactly is a "race" and what if any consensus there is on the borders of Caucasoid and what proportion of ancestry assigns you to this race or that - all questions any good Rassenwissenschaftler of whatever ethnic or political affiliation would easily answer -

I need to point out the onetime strong prejudice in this country against the Caucasoid Irish and the ongoing issues of the Caucasoid Jew, the issues in Africa between Bantu and Nilote or Bantu and Khoisan [I don't like that term, but it is generally used]; I do not doubt that in Asia you can get a good range of racial prejudices, it is just I do not personally know them.

Thing is, the green monkey "this guy looks different / talks different / thinks different / smells different / worships differently" - and is therefore, despicable, evil, dangerous - is a basic human drive. Allee same like you can, like my father, bar from the house any guns or gun simulacra, and the young - like my father's eldest son - will soon or late pick up a stick and go bang or brandish and thwack or dag or or thrust or put a string on it to make a bow.

All of which - like so much of the basic human drives - God directly or through the church needs to redefine, refine, redirect and replace with divine drives.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jasenj1 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:05 am

jochanaan wrote:I agree with you that the values of Jesus are under attack in this country. However, I would add a few other items to the list that you have presented:
[big snip]
And there are many, many more examples of our national neglect of God's principles, which all come down to a failure to "love our neighbors as ourselves."


My pastor cited the following verses this past Sunday:
I Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

"Conservatives" in the USA really like to harp on the issues in verse 9. But verse 10 gets pretty much ignored. We/they'll march in the streets to protest abortion or homosexuality. But where are we/they protesting weak financial regulation enforcement? Or working conditions for miners or migrant farmers?

And let's not beat the marriage drum too hard. Polygamy is standard in the OT. And little traditions like bearing children by your wife's maid. Why are we not supportive or at least tolerant of that?

Yes, the issues cited by the OT are examples of where the USA has ignored God's principles, but there are many others, too.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:08 am

But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Pretty much sums it up.

I was raised Episcopalian; some things stick in the mind:

ALMIGHTY and most merciful Father; We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against thy holy laws. We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done; And there is no health in us. But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us, miserable offenders. Spare thou those, O God, who confess their faults. Restore thou those who are penitent; According to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake; That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life, To the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

Applicable to all human - not excluding yrs trly
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:25 am

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:As I read it, I don't see any "expected results" if you will, more just a prescription.
"Perhaps the two of you are talking past each other a bit" Your question to Ron is sort of an honest, "Why bother, what is it going to fix if we again elevate christian moral values in this country" (not trying to put words in your mouth but attempting phrase it more obviously". It is a fair enough question to ask, or perhaps it would be better phrased "Why do you want to go to all that trouble, what will elevating Christian morals accomplish for our society".

I was hoping to hear back from Ron before answering but you may be right, maybe my question is to vague.

It is hardly "Why bother?". My question is, Ron's proposal sounds like a good thing... Is it the best thing to enrich the Kingdom of God?

Here is my reasoning (largely spurred on by my latest reading material -- hence my latest "rant")...

Matt 28:19-20 (KJV) wrote:Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Matt 28:19-20 (The Voice) wrote:Go out and make disciples in all the nations. Ceremonially wash them through baptism in the name of the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then disciple them. Form them in the practices and postures that I have taught you, and show them how to follow the commands I have laid down for you. And I will be with you, day after day, to the end of the age.


The church I grew up in took the first part seriously, they still have an alter call, even when nobody that is new to the church shows up. How are they doing with discipleship? The church is dwindling, there is back stabbing, gossip, one affair that was sort of ignored -- lots of hurt. They are know as legalistic throughout the community.

Lest you think it's unusual, the author of the book mentioned above talks about a TV show she watched. The british announcer went to the most "Christian" city in the US measured by per capita church attendance -- Dallas.

After looking at things like quality of life with respect to "Christian Values". They found that the city with the most church attendance showed no evidence that there was a Christian influence. When the "big name" spiritual leaders were asked about this they replied "That's not my concern, I'm a spiritual leader".

While it looks like I am building Ron's case, let me argue that changing laws doesn't change the heart. It may (and emphasis on may) change behavior but it doesn't change hearts.

The author's concern was that we are not preaching a "whole gospel". Our churches are preaching a gospel of salvation but the whole Gospel has been abandoned.

My question that needs to be evaluated by every one of us individually is this... "Is political activism as described by Ron, the best use of Kingdom resources". For some, that may be the case, for others, maybe we should look at how we can disciple our children or the guy next door.
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If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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