Christian moral values vs societal and political moral value

What does Christ teach about the issues of life? Make sure you back up your opinions with scripture, and always be courteous and polite in talking with others.<P>Only Permanent and Native Residents may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:22 pm

Petros wrote:jochanaan -

to much to say and being said in here for me to feel I should weigh in. But one of your points:

"Failing to condemn strongly any continuing prejudice against non-Caucasian races"

Passing very lightly over the very complex questions like "what exactly is a "race" and what if any consensus there is on the borders of Caucasoid and what proportion of ancestry assigns you to this race or that - all questions any good Rassenwissenschaftler of whatever ethnic or political affiliation would easily answer -

I need to point out the onetime strong prejudice in this country against the Caucasoid Irish and the ongoing issues of the Caucasoid Jew, the issues in Africa between Bantu and Nilote or Bantu and Khoisan [I don't like that term, but it is generally used]; I do not doubt that in Asia you can get a good range of racial prejudices, it is just I do not personally know them.

Thing is, the green monkey "this guy looks different / talks different / thinks different / smells different / worships differently" - and is therefore, despicable, evil, dangerous - is a basic human drive. Allee same like you can, like my father, bar from the house any guns or gun simulacra, and the young - like my father's eldest son - will soon or late pick up a stick and go bang or brandish and thwack or dag or or thrust or put a string on it to make a bow.

All of which - like so much of the basic human drives - God directly or through the church needs to redefine, refine, redirect and replace with divine drives.
Points taken. Perhaps that particular point of mine should be rephrased: "Failing to condemn strongly any continuing prejudice based on ethnic origin."
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:24 pm

jasenj1 wrote:..... My pastor cited the following verses this past Sunday:
I Cor 6:
9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

"Conservatives" in the USA really like to harp on the issues in verse 9. But verse 10 gets pretty much ignored. We/they'll march in the streets to protest abortion or homosexuality. But where are we/they protesting weak financial regulation enforcement? Or working conditions for miners or migrant farmers?
......
(Reformatted, emphasized, and color coded)


You raise a good point but the answer is far from simple. Satan has many forms of sin to promote and how to best deal with them needs to be likewise varied and possibly even more varied.

Please consider the nature of the difference that exists between the sins. As a first step at separating the categories:
-- Those that I have color coded in red tend to be done in secret, between or amongst sinners and are more hidden, and their damage to individuals and society tend to arise well after the comission of the sin.
-- those I have color coded in blue tend to be done between a sinner and to a more imediately present unwilling victim. These tend to leave a more prompt physical evidence of their damage.
-- Covetousness is green. It is the one sin that is sin when it occurs within the mind of the sinner whether or not it is acted upon and when acted upon tends to manifest as one of the other sins.

The red ones when committed may never come to light and need to be worked upon by the sinner, especially if he or she is a Christian, to purge them out. The blue ones are more readily acted upon by society via criminal prosecution and the green one is special because its primary damage is internal to the sinner until the sinner is overcome by it and acts upon the covetous desire.

Therefore it is no wonder that our reactions to these sins follow a different path.
When you say:
But where are we/they protesting ......... working conditions for miners or migrant farmers?
you have moved into a different area altogether as these are fairness issues subject to negotiation. and which after agreement is reached require honesty on the part of all parties. If an employer underpays his employees or fails to protect them from injury he steals their labor or possibly their ability to earn, but when the laborer fails to give a full day's labor for a full day's wage he/she becomes the thief. And when one worker steals the opportunity of advancement from a more capable worker just on the basis of seniority, then one worker is stealing the opportunity of advancement from the other.

When you say
But where are we/they protesting weak financial regulation enforcement ........
It is yet a different matter. Beyond requiring one to demonstrate they meet levels of proficiency and ethical awareness before engaging in business, regulation violates a dearly held underlying principle of justice, in that regulation largely depends on requiring one to prove their innocence, and the regulators are given great ability to be arbitrary and obstructionist. This is a much more difficult area in which to operate. Regulators are like the publicans (tax collectors of gospel times) They are greatly empowered to ruin the prospects of those that they regulate if they so choose, have you ever been audited by the IRS or some other regulator or government bureaucrat? I have had a run in with the FAA and the bastards won by being bastards and not being fair. The problem is, that it is not always the little guy, nor the regulator that is righteous, and this is a very difficult area to deal with? Any time you hear a politician advocating "a law with teeth in it" beware! They are usually seeking power and/or re-election more than anything else.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:44 pm

bn2bnude wrote:... While it looks like I am building Ron's case, let me argue that changing laws doesn't change the heart. It may (and emphasis on may) change behavior but it doesn't change hearts.
Thank you for the clarification. What I think is relevant to Ron's underlying thesis is that the cultural shift is becoming hostile to Christianity. It is unsafe for our children in public schools to be Christian. They are likely to be bullied for it or threatened or demeaned. And some of this is coming from the Teachers. It comes in a suppression to their free exercise to peaceably express their belief. And that free expression is also protected as symbolic speech. but the matter is worse when they are taught anti-christian thought and ethics and morality. When they are taught that homosexuality is just another lifestyle and just as good as heterosexuality. When they are taught that premarital sex is OK just so long as you practice safe sex and don't force anyone and if a pregnancy occurs there is nothing wrong with getting an abortion. Or when they are taught to couch the issue of abortion in the words of the pro-abortionists because they are more "neutral".

Our society is becoming coarser and its citizens more coarse and selfish and self centered because the Christian standard of right and wrong is being eliminated from its societal standing and the "new standard" is inferior to the Christian standard in those respects.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby MoNatureMan » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:37 pm

I know I need to respond and put my 2 cents in to all of this but am in middle of writing a very important letter that has to take priority.
Will be back later with comments for this discussion.

In Him
Ron :cross:
User avatar
MoNatureMan
Native Resident
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby natman » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:20 pm

jochanaan wrote:I agree with you that the values of Jesus are under attack in this country. However, I would add a few other items to the list that you have presented:

Failing to hold the big banks and the folks that supposedly run them accountable forr their criminal actions against the economic livelihood of many American citizens.


Who should we expect to hold the "big banks" accountable. The last time I looked none of those banks are forcing anyone to do business with them. If you do not like the "big banks", then find a "small bank" to do business with, or put your money in a mason jar under your bed or buried in your back yard. The only have any power because we, individually, have allowed them to have it.

jochanaan wrote:Allowing a culture of corruption, nepotism and financial influence to grow in our government at the federal, state and local levels, as the voting records of many representatives and Senators show. (For one chilling example, look up ALEC, the American Legislative Executive Council.)


Again, who is responsible for puting these "corrupt" and "nepotistic" people in office? The voters. The problem is that most voters do not take the time to investigate who they are voting for. They just look for the (D), (R) or (I) after their name and ASSUME that they are being represented.

jochanaan wrote:Allowing corporations to spend virtually unlimited amounts of money to proclaim messages that may or may not be true in order to influence supposedly free and fair elections.


The last I heard, we still had "freedom of speech" here. A corporation is an accumulation of individuals who agree to act as an "individual" and should have their own "freedom of speech" if it might benefit them corporately. Does it really matter who has the most money to spend on a campaign? If the voters are educated in the least, they SHOULD be able to discern the truth from the rhetoric. Again, the problem is that the voters do not take the time to investigate what information is being disseminated by the media.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
User avatar
natman
Mayor (Site Admin)
 
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:42 pm

natman wrote:
jochanaan wrote:I agree with you that the values of Jesus are under attack in this country. However, I would add a few other items to the list that you have presented:

Failing to hold the big banks and the folks that supposedly run them accountable forr their criminal actions against the economic livelihood of many American citizens.


Who should we expect to hold the "big banks" accountable. The last time I looked none of those banks are forcing anyone to do business with them. If you do not like the "big banks", then find a "small bank" to do business with, or put your money in a mason jar under your bed or buried in your back yard. The only have any power because we, individually, have allowed them to have it.

jochanaan wrote:Allowing a culture of corruption, nepotism and financial influence to grow in our government at the federal, state and local levels, as the voting records of many representatives and Senators show. (For one chilling example, look up ALEC, the American Legislative Executive Council.)


Again, who is responsible for puting these "corrupt" and "nepotistic" people in office? The voters. The problem is that most voters do not take the time to investigate who they are voting for. They just look for the (D), (R) or (I) after their name and ASSUME that they are being represented.

jochanaan wrote:Allowing corporations to spend virtually unlimited amounts of money to proclaim messages that may or may not be true in order to influence supposedly free and fair elections.


The last I heard, we still had "freedom of speech" here. A corporation is an accumulation of individuals who agree to act as an "individual" and should have their own "freedom of speech" if it might benefit them corporately. Does it really matter who has the most money to spend on a campaign? If the voters are educated in the least, they SHOULD be able to discern the truth from the rhetoric. Again, the problem is that the voters do not take the time to investigate what information is being disseminated by the media.
All good points. Therefore, perhaps we should not focus our energies so much on the legislative agendas which are set by those folks we elected, but rather on praying for a reawakening of Godly love and discernment among the people...
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby prairieboy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:38 pm

Political values are generally the perceived values of the electorate at large. There are two ways to change this; 1)(most chosen) make more noise so it appears that the electorates values are changing, and 2)change the electorate by doing what Jesus told us to do, go out and make disciples, teaching them what he taught us. This is the more difficult course of action, because it demands first of all that we change.
Of course there are also political crusaders who speak loud, speak often, and wear out the opposition. It is time to dig in our heels and quit backing up.

My son told me today of some war-time quotes. One was by a soldier in the 82nd Airborne who had landed and was digging a foxhole. A tank looking for safety stopped at the site. The soldier told the tanker, "Just put it back there. We're the 82nd and they're not going any further than this."

That needs to become our attitude. Stop the compromise! Stop the political correctness! We are MORE THAN CONQUERORS! What we loose in the here and now, temporary, we will more than make up for in the eternal.
It's easy to say on the keyboard, harder to do where the shoes hit the street, but my mindset is changing.
Gerald
prairieboy
Native Resident
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:01 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby natman » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:36 pm

prairieboy wrote:Political values are generally the perceived values of the electorate at large. There are two ways to change this;

1)(most chosen) make more noise so it appears that the electorates values are changing, and

2)change the electorate by doing what Jesus told us to do, go out and make disciples, teaching them what he taught us. This is the more difficult course of action, because it demands first of all that we change.


As Christians, I think that our first priority is to follow option #2.

One thing that we need to remember is that were are "in the world, not of the world". We can do our best to influence the world around us, as long as we do not go outside of the precepts God has given us to do so. However, we know that we will ALWAYS be surrounded by evil and that no matter what laws are passed by our governors, we must first follow the Law of God and to be obedient to Christ's commands to preach the Gospel to every tongue, tribe and nation.

prairieboy wrote:Of course there are also political crusaders who speak loud, speak often, and wear out the opposition. It is time to dig in our heels and quit backing up.


Agreed. However, that applies only to those who are in Christ. We cannot and should not expect that those outside of Christ will cease to continue to push for their own agendas.

I am not saying "Give in". I am saying, "Be what God expects US to be, and expect those outside of Christ to be who they themselves or Satan expects them to be, and don't be surprised or disappointed if you can't change their minds or hearts. That, after all, is the responsibility and the work of the Holy Spirit.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
User avatar
natman
Mayor (Site Admin)
 
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:40 pm

natman wrote:
prairieboy wrote:Political values are generally the perceived values of the electorate at large. There are two ways to change this;

1)(most chosen) make more noise so it appears that the electorates values are changing, and

2)change the electorate by doing what Jesus told us to do, go out and make disciples, teaching them what he taught us. This is the more difficult course of action, because it demands first of all that we change.


As Christians, I think that our first priority is to follow option #2.

One thing that we need to remember is that were are "in the world, not of the world". We can do our best to influence the world around us, as long as we do not go outside of the precepts God has given us to do so. However, we know that we will ALWAYS be surrounded by evil and that no matter what laws are passed by our governors, we must first follow the Law of God and to be obedient to Christ's commands to preach the Gospel to every tongue, tribe and nation.

prairieboy wrote:Of course there are also political crusaders who speak loud, speak often, and wear out the opposition. It is time to dig in our heels and quit backing up.


Agreed. However, that applies only to those who are in Christ. We cannot and should not expect that those outside of Christ will cease to continue to push for their own agendas.

I am not saying "Give in". I am saying, "Be what God expects US to be, and expect those outside of Christ to be who they themselves or Satan expects them to be, and don't be surprised or disappointed if you can't change their minds or hearts. That, after all, is the responsibility and the work of the Holy Spirit.
:like:
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:28 pm

If "gay" marriage were legal, but people everywhere chose either celibacy or marriage to a partner of the opposite sex, the persistence of such a law would not be moral, but not as much a problem.

I guess we could say the same about any number of vices.

Nearly a century ago we had total prohibition of the sale of alcohol. Special dispensation had to be given to those churches that use wine in their Eucharist as a matter of faith. To this day, some counties remain "dry".

If we banned alcohol because some people drank to excess, should we ban the sale of food because some people eat to excess? Ludicrous, but in New York City, it was, until recently, illegal to sell soft drinks in large cups.

Now let's take this discussion back to naturism: what if our legislators decided that naturism is bad for us. Should they ban it?
Ramblinman
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:22 am

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:39 am

We will note that legislatures need not assume something is in any sense "bad for" people before they ban it, nor "good for" people" before they require it.

Consider a legislature that bans mayonnaise, Daylight saving, rap and nail filing [all things, as it happens, that I find offensive] and requires, we suggest, nudity, the acquisition of at least three languages, and the correct spelling of neigjhbour.

That legislature would not be to any serious extent harming people, not particularly benefitting them. It WOULD annoy some who would try to vote it out of office and gratify others who would be inclined to support it at the polls.

And I fear that is what most members of most legislatures seek to do, more than genuine harm or good.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5608
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Upper Michigan

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:27 am

Petros wrote: ..... Consider a legislature that bans mayonnaise, .... and requires...nudity,....

..... And I fear that is what most members of most legislatures seek to do, more than genuine harm or good.


And here is where a constitution is needed. As one Supreme Court Justice once said. "We are a nation of laws, not men!" A legislature, and any other aspect of government, needs to be under the law, rather than to be a law unto itself.

Petros wrote:That legislature would not be to any serious extent harming people, not particularly benefitting them.


You speak amiss. Such a legislature would be a tyrant and a destroyer of liberty. People are willing to die for liberty! Or perhaps more to the point, they are willing to KILL FOR LIBERTY !

A legislature that you describe has started down a road to destruction.

Constitution for the United States of America.
Article. I.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power
.......
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers,


All within a nation need to be under the law, or at least that is what the U.S. Constitution established. Congress is not empowered to make laws which are lacking in necessity or propriety. I do not think the Supreme Court has yet declared a law unconstitutional because it was lacking in these aspects. Alas, it probably should have!

We now experience legislatures (federal, state and local) that are acting in ways that are tyrannical.

Now as the title of this strip is, "Christian moral values vs societal and political moral value" It is worth noting that this idea that, even the King or other supreme political entity, needs to be subordinate to the law, and needs to remain within the limits of the power granted to it, is a Biblical notion. God and God alone is above human law. The usurpers who go beyond this are Tyrants who would make themselves God. Otherwise chaos and strife will result until it degenerates to outgright rebellion and war.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:26 am

Well quite. The legislatures and courts ane executives we have, by and large, have moved to "Law is what Big Brother says it is".

And yes, that is harmful [even though gluten-free orange juice might not be], in that a committee is steering the bus with nobody watching the road.

Simpson and Sampson should be restored to the shelves and made required reading.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5608
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Upper Michigan

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:00 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:...Congress is not empowered to make laws which are lacking in necessity or propriety....
And who decides what is necessary and proper? I suppose the Supreme Court could decide that--but it seems that many of the same folks who complain about "unnecessary and improper" laws also complain about "activist courts." :roll: (Sorry; my frustration with the political process shows sometimes.)
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:48 pm

Petros wrote:..... Simpson and Sampson should be restored to the shelves and made required reading.
Never Heard of it. Elaborate please.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity and Ethics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest