Christian moral values vs societal and political moral value

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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:29 am

Water seeks its own level.

Without maintenance, tools rust, houses rot, parking lots revert to woodland.

Human nature also tends toward its point of least effort.

The Constitutional Republic and the Worker's Paradise and the Loyal Subjects of His Majesty and the Podunk Community Market are NOT that point of least effort, and each works only so long as enough likeminded people pull the weeds and trim the hedges and mow the lawn.

The same applies to the Pentecost Fire-Baptised Holiness Approved Church of Podunk.

And it applies to the church of God [not to be confused with Church of God A, B, C ...] - which works as long as the Spirit maintains the beds anbd harversts the fruits.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:20 pm

Maybe what is needed is a bit of randomness in the Judicial Business every so often Lets say that on some sort of schedule that each justice of the supreme court would have to pick a number between 1 and 6, a die would be rolled and if it came up that number the justice would have to have his tenure on the court reaffirmed by a vote of the people. It might just get them to mind their P's and Q's. Sort of a Casting of lots. If they did not know if they would be subject to being dethroned they might be more careful how they voted.

Ok that is just one idea. Anyone else want to join in on brainstorming.

Here is another one. Let the nation be divided into 9 districts each year 1 district would be assigned to each justice by lot and he must get 40% of the vote in that district to remain in office. (alternatively the two lowest with a reaffirmation lest than 60% get the boot.)

Pick a different percentage if you don't like 40, or 60. I just figured that sometimes judges have to make unpopular rulings in order to uphold the law.

My point in the above suggestions is that it is not necessarily a good thing if a justice is too sure of his tenure.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:29 am

I am reminded of the story of Solon, how that he was commissioned to create a legal code - a constitution of sorts - for Athens, then left the country lest the various pressure groups try to get him to change this or that article.

Seems to me the problem is not tenure - at least one of the three branches needs to be responsive to something other than the political ebb and flow.

Rather the problem appears to be that certain judges - I wish I could have discussed it with my grampa the judge, but he died when I was a toddler - are looking not to fact and the plain sense of the constitution but to some conceptual system assumed to be higher.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:39 am

natman wrote:There's the rub. Congress does not have the authority to limit the power of the Supreme Court. The Constitution does. However, who interprets the Constitution? The Supreme Court. So they, and they alone, can interpret it to mean that they have all the power they want. :(

Who amends the Constitution? Congress. It isn't easy, or we'd find good amendments repealed and bad laws enacted more often than they currently are. But just this once, I'd like to see the Supreme Court reigned in by Constitutional amendment.

I would love to see an amendment that bars all states, cities and counties from legislating our wardrobe. In other words, I would like to be able to legally be nude on any beach or city park in America. Let's have no more instances of local nudity bans trumping nudity on federal land that happens to be in a county beach that bans nudity. That still doesn't fix the social pariah I would make of myself, but fixing the law first would be a step in the right direction.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:48 pm

Ramblinman wrote:I would love to see an amendment that bars all states, cities and counties from legislating our wardrobe......Let's have no more instances of local nudity bans trumping nudity on federal land that happens to be in a county beach that bans nudity.....
There is a simpler, and much easier (to enact) way to do this. Simply pass a state law (or state constitution amendment) that pre-empts nudity legislation from localities. The National Rifle Association has been pretty successful in getting such law or constitutional amendments passed in several states to prevent unjust prosecution of gun owners because they happen to pass through some town. And likewise there is a similar but limited law for interstate travellers. It is a justice and fairness issue so that local zealots can not create "gotcha" laws as part of a "death of a thousand cuts" approach to promote a prohibition on controversial issues. (No intention of arguing the good or ill of controversial issues here, merely saying that when there is sharp disagreement good political sense demands that we not abandon practicality in fairness to citizens.)

I would say the fairness issue about local laws is the great injustice that has been heaped upon Stephen Gough in the United Kingdom. As has been explained to me from multiple sources, strictly per the law, nudity is not an offence in England but Gough has been incarcerated under the vague "disturbing the peace / public order laws" that prevail there. That allows a police officer to order one to do or stop doing something because he thinks it is causing offense or alarm and therefore breaching the Queen's peace. Then it allows low level magistrates to issue an Anti Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) requiring or prohibiting almost anything the magistrate wishes to impose as a remedy.

A point missed by many is that no citizen or subject can be said to be free if they do not have a reasonable expectation of knowing whether a simple action of theirs is a violation of law. The FUD factor (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) has no place in a civilized society nor does the power to arbitrarily decide such things by a police officer. When that is allowed there is a "chilling effect" on liberty (to use a phrase used by our Supreme Court in free speech cases). Such laws as they have in England on such matters makes them not much better that the morality police in certain Islamic regimes. Law without Justice and Fairness is Tyranny.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:21 am

Bare_Truth wrote:There is a simpler, and much easier (to enact) way to do this. Simply pass a state law (or state constitution amendment) that pre-empts nudity legislation from localities. The National Rifle Association has been pretty successful in getting such law or constitutional amendments passed in several states to prevent unjust prosecution of gun owners because they happen to pass through some town. And likewise there is a similar but limited law for interstate travellers. It is a justice and fairness issue so that local zealots can not create "gotcha" laws as part of a "death of a thousand cuts" approach to promote a prohibition on controversial issues. (No intention of arguing the good or ill of controversial issues here, merely saying that when there is sharp disagreement good political sense demands that we not abandon practicality in fairness to citizens.)

I would say the fairness issue about local laws is the great injustice that has been heaped upon Stephen Gough in the United Kingdom. As has been explained to me from multiple sources, strictly per the law, nudity is not an offence in England but Gough has been incarcerated under the vague "disturbing the peace / public order laws" that prevail there. That allows a police officer to order one to do or stop doing something because he thinks it is causing offense or alarm and therefore breaching the Queen's peace. Then it allows low level magistrates to issue an Anti Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) requiring or prohibiting almost anything the magistrate wishes to impose as a remedy.

A point missed by many is that no citizen or subject can be said to be free if they do not have a reasonable expectation of knowing whether a simple action of theirs is a violation of law. The FUD factor (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) has no place in a civilized society nor does the power to arbitrarily decide such things by a police officer. When that is allowed there is a "chilling effect" on liberty (to use a phrase used by our Supreme Court in free speech cases). Such laws as they have in England on such matters makes them not much better that the morality police in certain Islamic regimes. Law without Justice and Fairness is Tyranny.
And perhaps such a state law can open the doors for a national conversation, as is happening now over the legal-cannabis issue because of Colorado's and Washington State's initiatives.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby natman » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:24 am

Ramblinman wrote:Who amends the Constitution? Congress. It isn't easy, or we'd find good amendments repealed and bad laws enacted more often than they currently are. But just this once, I'd like to see the Supreme Court reigned in by Constitutional amendment.


Yes. Congress makes the law. But the Supreme Court STILL has the final say in how it is interpreted or it's Constitutional standing, even if it pertains to the responsibilities of the Supreme Court itself. So if the Supreme Court does not want to have it's power diminished, regardless of what Congress says, the Court will just interpret it to be "Unconstitutional".
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby pipermac » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:15 pm

Are we, as individuals, being salt and light in our own tiny part of the world? Are our friends and neighbors helped or hindered by our words and deeds? I believe that if Christians, both individually and corporately, started truly being salt and light, we could see very significant changes in short order. Even if we only show the love of Christ to one other person...

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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby vycna » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:15 pm

This last suggestion is the significantly important direction for believers. Society won't change the way we desire with being politically active. But we can have impact with influencing people with being Christlike, and showing spiritual virtues with having love and compassion generally. We won't just come to that on our own efforts, but we can focus on Christ more, growing in relationship with him, and he will work through us. Others will be reached and some will respond with change in their lives coming to Christ. Each of us may have a small impact that way, but this is the way that can have great growth that way, and the political process won't change society in that direction at all.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:18 am

Reread The Devil and Daniel Webster. Benet has an attractive style and some intriging ideas.

For a Cliff Quicky, the point is the devil is not to be defeated by his own methods. History suggests the devil is adept at using politics; he whom we are to be imitating did not get involved in politics, unless paying taxes counts. We are of course not admonished to avoid politics, but neitherr are we - that I can see - given any reason to expect significant positive outcomes if we do.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:44 am

Petros wrote:... he whom we are to be imitating did not get involved in politics, unless paying taxes counts....
And as I recall, his hand was forced that time. :)
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:00 am

That is what makes it so taxing.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby jochanaan » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:14 pm

Petros wrote:That is what makes it so taxing.

OUCH!! :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby natman » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:24 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Petros wrote:... he whom we are to be imitating did not get involved in politics, unless paying taxes counts....
And as I recall, his hand was forced that time. :)


I do not think His hand was "forced". As I see it, Jesus "gladly" paid the taxes He owed, even if the money came from the mouth of a fish. He acknowledged who's face was on the coins and to whom they needed to be paid.

Also, Jesus did not avoid politics. In his day, the most political leaders were the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and Sadducees, the religious leaders, and He went after them with a vengeance, face-to-face.
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Re: Christian moral values vs societal and political moral v

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:15 pm

natman wrote:.....Also, Jesus did not avoid politics. In his day, the most political leaders were the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and Sadducees, the religious leaders, and He went after them with a vengeance, face-to-face.
Allow me to suggest a rephrasing.

"In his day, the most political leaders were the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and Sadducees, the religious leaders, and He went after their sins and intransigence and ignorance, and hypocrisy with a vengeance, face-to-face."

After all, he did on occasion dine with them, e.g. Luke 7:36-50
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