Who Said iit is Wrong?

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Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby MoNatureMan » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:20 am

I saw a movie Time Changers. It presents an interesting question. If we tell a person it is wrong to steel, by what authority do we proclaim it?

I found the movie at this link.
http://www.ultimatetube.com/videos/11553/time-changer

Your thoughts.

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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby JimShedd112 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:58 am

I'd guess most laws are based upon religious moral codes such as the Ten Commandments, at least initially.

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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby MoNatureMan » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:39 am

Yes that is the basis. Many also consider it Natural Law. But by what Authority is law given?
The government and society, often changes it's view, and is moved by many powers.
Only God's Word is a sound foundation and never changes. Yes we will have some interpretation issues, but His Word never changes.
In earlier days of America major laws were founded by Scripture. However society and government has changed and now good is called bad and bad is called good.
It may not be politically correct, but it is only God's Holy Word that is the True ultimate authority for morality.
Government only acts as an enforcement agent of God's or the devil's moral code.

The movie declares that is not proper to just say a person has done wrong, or has sinned. But we need to declare that God said something is wrong. It is by God's authority, things are right and wrong, not anyone(s) else. Once people realize they have done wrong (according to God's Word) we can tell of God's love and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
Part of the trick of the devil in our society today, is to not tell anyone that God said something is wrong. Then logically speaking, if we have not done anything wrong against God, how can He separate us from Heaven. By being politically correct we have weakened the Gospel message, and many are going to hell.

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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Petros » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:42 am

The whole My truth Your truth Relative right and wrong thing is new. There was always an understanding that certain things are wrong, and substantial agreement across cultures on what those things were.

Of COURSE people always wanted to do and often dis wrong things - but they did them knowing they were outside.

This is an attempt to act anarchically, as one of my students once did. And yet - if you rob Percival's house, or rape his daughter, kill his mother, cause his pregnant wife to miscarry, trash his lawn and slice his ear off - he may just feel that there are right and wrong separate from individual values.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby natman » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:29 pm

While I truly believe that I God has written His laws upon ALL of our hearts, such that we KNOW that it is evil to steal, lie, cheat, etc, I also think that some laws are based on experiencing pain and loss.

Even without parental intervention, children quickly learn not to bite someone else when they themselves have been bitten and realize how much it hurts. They also learn not to take things from others when they experience the loss of someone taking something they cherish from themselves.
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Maverick » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:22 pm

I've seen that movie twice. It's a great film.

In my conversations with atheists and non-believers in general, I have learned that their answer to "How do you determine right from wrong?" is usually something like this: "It's right if it doesn't hurt someone else." This is a teaching straight out of Wicca and the Satanist cults. I even saw an atheist acquaintance of mine write once that if he had to choose any faith, he would choose Satanism simply because the core belief of "do whatever you want so long as it doesn't hurt someone else" is what he believes as an atheist.

The follow-up question is, of course, "How do you know that is the right answer?" Or, "Who said that is right?" To which they answer that no one says what is right, but rather our morality is another product of our evolution.

I think the Biblical counter to the creed of Satanism is "love your neighbor as yourself." Paul writes in Romans 13:8-10 that loving your neighbor fulfills all aspects of the law: don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't steal, etc. Ultimately, there has to be some authority.

The "truth is relative" argument is easily destroyed simply by asking, "So is the statement 'all truth is relative' a relative truth?" Ergo, there must be some kind of absolute truth, otherwise mankind is blind and stumbling around in the darkness with no sense of direction and life has no real meaning--which is sadly what a lot of non-believers believe, that we are merely products of a series of freak occurrences and our morality evolved over time.

Another thing I've heard in my conversations with my atheist friends is that "as long as [fill in the blank] doesn't hurt society, it's permissible." These same people support homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. I wonder if they had way that over time they'd realize that the lack of a familial structure with a mother and a father is utterly destructive to society at an individual level (as evidenced by the high depression and suicide rates of children adopted into homosexual families).
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Petros » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:57 pm

One researcher - actually not bad as such things go - concluded that we evolved two varieties - elite alpha humans who know they are it but often pretend there is a God to control others, and vassal servile humans who believe there is a God and that it is their duty to serve the others.

Many are proud and happy to be of the elite who KNOW there is no meaning.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:22 pm

The short form of the wiccan reed is, "An thou harm none do what thou wilt", howerver the contradiction and flaw of that is found in the Bible in a verse that though it may be reconginzed is not often quoted.
In Ecclesiastes 8 and verse 11 the author wrote:Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
If the harm is not immediately seen then humans are likely to fail to see the cause and effect relationship. It is a matter of lacking understanding.
...... and hence the author explained when he wrote: 12 ¶Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
We as humans do not naturally understand wisdom
Which is why the author of Proverbs in Chapter 2 wrote: 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

Understanding is grasping the whole of a matter
Knowledge is knowing what sorts of things can be done and how they might be accomplished
Wisdom is having the good sense to know which of the possible ways things should be done.

The thing in the Wiccan Reed that jumps the track is found in the last two word which define what you should do when it makes the criterion "your will". That criterion is a bad one because without God's guidance "our will" is wholly lacking in sufficient understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. Taking unto ourselves by our will the definition of the knowledge of good and evil is to buy into the "bill of goods" that the Serpent sold to Eve.
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Petros » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:13 am

It is so true we do NOT know which of our actions harm and which do good. Simpson and Sampson - out of favor although / because true. And there is multivalence. Joseph's brothers - undeniably an evil / harmful impulse. Which did harm - which resulted in good. The wiccan style principle is hopeless for blind men palpating a mastodon. There is the theory - I happen not to buy it, but it goes around - that Judas believed he was doing something positive by putting Jesus in a place where he would have to reveal his quality. In which case, A good impulse led to harm which produced a greater good - from which harm has resulted ...

Solon - judge no man happy, no action good until you hear what the fat lady is singing.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby natman » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:34 pm

After spending much time in Japan in the US military, my dad came back with the Buddhist nation that "One can do whatever they want as long as it does not hurt someone else." He used it to justify having several sexual affairs.

While he did not "physically" harm my mother directly, he DEFINITELY destroyed their marriage and could/may have infected her with a sexually transmitted disease. Ultimately they divorced, which did even further damage to our family. :(
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Maverick » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:06 pm

Bare_Truth, thank you for your exegesis of that passage in Ecclesiastes. I've read Ecclesiastes several times but never stopped to ponder that passage. I may need to go back and do another study. :wink:

Bare_Truth wrote:Understanding is grasping the whole of a matter
Knowledge is knowing what sorts of things can be done and how they might be accomplished
Wisdom is having the good sense to know which of the possible ways things should be done.

The thing in the Wiccan Reed that jumps the track is found in the last two word which define what you should do when it makes the criterion "your will". That criterion is a bad one because without God's guidance "our will" is wholly lacking in sufficient understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. Taking unto ourselves by our will the definition of the knowledge of good and evil is to buy into the "bill of goods" that the Serpent sold to Eve.


It's as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:
19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 1:19-20


Petros wrote:Many are proud and happy to be of the elite who KNOW there is no meaning.


Petros, I'm not sure that I understand your post. If you're saying that the "elite" are the people who believe that there is no God and no meaning of life, then based on observations, I agree. But if you're saying that there is absolutely no meaning to life, I respectfully disagree.

Looking back to Ecclesiastes:
13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (emphasis added)
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Petros » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:25 am

Try it thus [the written word eliminates the important cues from intonation, volume, expression and posture]:

Many are proud and happy to be of the "elite*" who "KNOW**" there is no meaning.

*"The self-chosen, self-proclaimed elite"
** The knowing of rote learning, of wishful thinking based assertion, tot the true knowledge from without.

A large part of my trouble interacting with the world as she be is that I am one who instinctively, from inner knowledge if you will, have always from earliest days asserted that there IS truth, there IS reality, that there is meaning, not mAya waiting to be deconstructed.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:12 am

Petros wrote:...that there is meaning, not mAya waiting to be deconstructed.


If you would like to discuss the collapse of the Maya empire, it may be a good case study for the common problem of humanity separated from God and his revealed will.
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Petros » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:58 am

The joys of multilingual homonyms.

That is no doubt true, but I ws pinting rather to > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion) <
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Re: Who Said iit is Wrong?

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:43 pm

Petros wrote:The joys of multilingual homonyms.

That is no doubt true, but I ws pinting rather to > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion) <

Huh? Your link seems to lead to a blind alley...
I have been Petros-punked?
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