A confusion of gender lingo!

[Ramblinman]

Every person in this picture was born with XY Chromosomes and none have had a Sex Change Operation. All of them have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and no cell in their body is able to use Androgen, so in spite of having the Male, Y Chromosome they develop as women. For Detail See at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#/media/File:Orchids01.JPG[/quote]
If we had met any of these CAIS people prior to Gregor Medel's revelations, we would have said that they were women, but were infertile due to physical deformity (lacking a womb).

I do not believe that in this specific situation, marriage to a CAIS person constitutes the abomination of homosexuality.
I am open to hearing other opinions of course.

In another encounter, I met a woman whom I mistook for a young man. She was 18, of stocky build, short haircut, baggy male clothing and male demeanor.
If we had both been naked, she would not have been able to hide her breasts, vulva and feminine hips.
The Bible forbids cross dressing, keeping in mind that each culture has its own definition of what is male or female clothing.
Even naked cultures tend to have male ornaments and female ornaments such as lip plugs and feathers for the women and some other adornments for men who have been initiated into the ranks of adult males.

[balaam]

keeping in mind that each culture has its own definition of what is male or female clothing.

Can you imagine the shock of someone from the 16th Century that women wear such a male garment as tights?

[naturaldon]

Can you imagine the shock of someone from the 16th Century that women wear such a male garment as tights?

...Or that men wear kilts, in any century??!!

[Bare_Truth]

It is my opinion the God, based upon male or female chromosomes, 'hard-wires' the minds of men and women to be male and female but they may, for reasons of there own, choose to attempt to pursue some other plan for their life.................

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For the sake of completeness on this, I would like to relate that in the matter of CAIS presented above. The brain of a developing baby regardless of XX or XY starts out taking on the distinctly female structure! (Yes there really are physically different sturcture in male and female brains!) Then, when the hormones kick in during the early development stages, the brain of the normal XY male undergoes some retrograde changes which actually cause shrinkage before additional growth overtakes the shrinkage issues (Please ladies not too many jokes about all men being brain damaged ) The end result is that male and female brains have more of some parts and less of others depending on gender but also individual developments. So the developing "mind" is influenced by variation of brain structure dependent on the gender. But in CAIS even the cells of the growing brain make changes on their reaction (or non reaction in CAIS) when the androgen hormones kick in. So then literally the CAIS women not only have Feminized bodies, but Feminized Brains to go with them.

As for developing infants with Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, PAIS, they can be expected to possibly have an intermediate brain formation. Now what exactly that does to the so called hard wiring of gender in the brain I do not have information.

Upon the failure to find a specific "Gay Gene" there has been attention devoted to hormones present during gestation, and There is some plausible theory put forward as to how the hormones actually present in the mother's body at various stages of pregnancy might play a part in the manifestation of gender. However, in the event that this comes into play, it is uncertain, and my own thoughts are probably closer to "How should such a person play out the hand that genes and hormones have dealt them?". I would think I can only favor the notion I would rather go with that it would be better to stick to living a life where I have to get my brain to accomodate a physically functioning body than to try to live a life where I have to live with a malfunctioning simulacrum of a body aligned with my brain. Intutively it seems the better and more practical course as I see the brain as the more naturally adaptable part of my physical being.

If the theory based on the mother's hormone profile during pregnancy has validity, then I am concerned that the "gender confused youth" may be vulnerable to being seduced into making some very wrong headed decisions depending on the counsel that they get. There then remains an issue of getting sound counsel for individuals, as the best course overall may not appear as the easiest !

[Ramblinman]

I used to work with a guy who may have struggled with same-sex temptation.
His pastor advised him to remain celibate and he accepted that celibacy is the only way for an unmarried man, even if it meant a lifetime in his particular case.
That was his struggle, but God was by his side

We each have unique temptations to avoid.
My pastor (now deceased) was once a heavy drinker. By the grace of God and a strong support network he remained sober the whole time I knew him.
That was his struggle, but God was by his side.

[Ramblinman]

Can you imagine the shock of someone from the 16th Century that women wear such a male garment as tights?

...Or that men wear kilts, in any century??!!

Cross-dressing within one's time and culture is forbidden by God. It is understood that clothing styles vary nation to nation, tribe to tribe, even to the point of no clothing at all.

[Petros]

Leave us be fair:

in frankly hot to warm temperate climes in cultures with minimal clothing technology it is common for both sexes to wear either a wrap open at the bottom or a loincloth. There is often differentiation - penis sheath for M, pubic apron for F, or M loincloth F skirt, or both skirt / kilt - a MALE garment, please, kilt wearing women is an innovation in Scotland - with different features. No cross dressing implied.

[Ramblinman]

Leave us be fair:

in frankly hot to warm temperate climes in cultures with minimal clothing technology it is common for both sexes to wear either a wrap open at the bottom or a loincloth. There is often differentiation - penis sheath for M, pubic apron for F, or M loincloth F skirt, or both skirt / kilt - a MALE garment, please, kilt wearing women is an innovation in Scotland - with different features. No cross dressing implied.

You have not disproved my point. Whatever the difference in adornment, there is a difference.
Those who pretend to be something else, well they are a different matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

[Jim]

Cross-dressing within one's time and culture is forbidden by God. It is understood that clothing styles vary nation to nation, tribe to tribe, even to the point of no clothing at all.

This opinion is based on one controversial verse.

Deuteronomy 22.5 “A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Does Deuteronomy 22.8-12 apply equally?

8 “When you build a new house, install a parapet along your roof so that if someone falls from the roof, you won’t bring guilt of bloodshed on your house.”
9 “Don’t plant two kinds of seeds in your vineyard. Otherwise, the entire crop will have to be forfeited, both the seed that you have sown and the produce from it.
10 “Don’t plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.
11 “Don’t wear material made from wool and linen mixed together.
12 ”Sew tassels for yourselves on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself.”

Can cultures change? When women first started wearing trousers regularly 50-some years ago was it sin, but now it's OK? Men's fashion designers now regularly design skirts and dresses for men; did that start being OK when the first such designs were displayed 30-some years ago?

As Christian nudists, let us not be condemning of others that don't follow cultural standards.

[Ramblinman]

Cross-dressing within one's time and culture is forbidden by God. It is understood that clothing styles vary nation to nation, tribe to tribe, even to the point of no clothing at all.

This opinion is based on one controversial verse.

Deuteronomy 22.5 “A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Does Deuteronomy 22.8-12 apply equally?

8 “When you build a new house, install a parapet along your roof so that if someone falls from the roof, you won’t bring guilt of bloodshed on your house.”
9 “Don’t plant two kinds of seeds in your vineyard. Otherwise, the entire crop will have to be forfeited, both the seed that you have sown and the produce from it.
10 “Don’t plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.
11 “Don’t wear material made from wool and linen mixed together.
12 ”Sew tassels for yourselves on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself.”

Can cultures change? When women first started wearing trousers regularly 50-some years ago was it sin, but now it's OK? Men's fashion designers now regularly design skirts and dresses for men; did that start being OK when the first such designs were displayed 30-some years ago?
As Christian nudists, let us not be condemning of others that don't follow cultural standards.

One verse says, "Thou shalt not kill" and that is sufficient evidence for most folks that murder is sin.
Likewise, God need only tell us once not to cross dress.
If Momma had to tell us something twice, it came with a whipping the second time.

Trousers for women are a different cut. They do not disguise the difference between men and women.
As for "regular" design of skirts and dresses for men, that does not make it okay, and I am not convinced that this is anything done in any meaningful percentage.

[Jim]

One verse says, "Thou shalt not kill" and that is sufficient evidence for most folks that murder is sin.

Jesus repeated that command.

One verse from Deuteronomy 22 says, ”Sew tassels for yourselves on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself.” Is that sufficient evidence for tassels? Do you do that? If not, how do you choose which laws from Deuteronomy 22 to follow?

Jesus summed up the law,

whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, because this summarizes the Law and the Prophets.

If someone was trying to deceive me, that would not be following the law. The rabbis who don't argue that this was talking about military service say it was talking about deception used in order to commit sexual sin.

[Ramblinman]

One verse says, "Thou shalt not kill" and that is sufficient evidence for most folks that murder is sin.

Jesus repeated that command

So it does seem that you have to be told twice before you will obey?

[Jim]

So it does seem that you have to be told twice before you will obey?

I am not one who believes that the whole of the Law given to the Jews applies to Gentile believers. Galatians speaks a lot to that subject. Do you sew tassels on the four corners of your garments? Observe the sabbatical and Jubilee years?

If Jesus teaches it, I usually think we Christians should follow it, but sometimes he is probably speaking to a particular situation. I have not sold all I have and given it all to the poor.

[Ramblinman]

So it does seem that you have to be told twice before you will obey?

I am not one who believes that the whole of the Law given to the Jews applies to Gentile believers. Galatians speaks a lot to that subject. Do you sew tassels on the four corners of your garments? Observe the sabbatical and Jubilee years?

If Jesus teaches it, I usually think we Christians should follow it, but sometimes he is probably speaking to a particular situation. I have not sold all I have and given it all to the poor.

Dressing as a woman is not mentioned specifically in the New Testament, but the message of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one.
We keep the spirit of the Torah. The principles of the weekly and larger sabbaths remains intact.

Jesus did not say, "Sell all you have and give it all to the poor". Selling all you have was commanded to those undertaking the mobile life of an apostle. Giving to the poor was commanded, but Jesus did not specify the amount. Perhaps a tithe was the intended amount, with the rest kept in cash reserve to provide for the apostle when he ministered to poverty-stricken areas so as not to be a burden on them.
Indeed it is highly unlikely that Jesus meant for anyone to give everything away for that very reason.

[naturaldon]

I regularly use a sarong (man's garment - a missionary friend from Indonesia introduced me to these years ago). I actually happened to place blue tassels on the corners of a couple of them, which I use primarily in my naturist excursions. Not because of the OT Law but because I'm hoping someone will ask me about them and I can speak to them about Jesus (not that I need tassels to start that conversation). I'll model one soon and post a pic.

I also wear a kilt on occasion outdoors. Once I wore one at a youth camp when all our boys (and leaders) did so among hundreds of other attendees. A lady asked me why we were wearing skirts. I quickly corrected her simply by saying, "It's not a skirt, it's a kilt." Other boys and men thought it was cool that we had the guts to do so. It was a great manly lesson for the guys that some still talk about today.