The Christian Naturist response

[Maverick]

This is in the "Christianity and Ethics" category, but if it's better suited somewhere else, by all means please let it be moved.

In the wake of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape allegations levied against big shots and household names, I am curious as to the Village's thoughts about how we as Christian naturists should respond to this. There are strong opinions and vitriol coming from what I guess are "both sides" of this issue, one that says that men are out to conquer women and the other that says that women are asking for it. This is a male-dominated community, of course, but I think we tend to be more well-reasoned than how most men are stereotyped.

So, how do you think should we respond? What views and attitudes should we have?

[Jim]

The Golden Rule is a good place to start.

Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, because this summarizes the Law and the Prophets. -- Matthew 7.12 (ISV)

Think about how you would like to be treated sexually by someone for whom you did not have sexual desires, say another person of the same sex if you are strictly heterosexual. When people do otherwise, it is wrong. Of course, it can be tricky. You need to be very caring and sensitive to victims, but false accusations, different cultural expectations, and misunderstandings all are possible.

[JimShedd112]

While I believe those who commit wrongs should be held accountable and be punished I am very much opposed to wrongful allegations whether for monetary gain or political gamesmanship. For too long Congress has created laws from which they’ve exempted themselves. Now they seek to require training to explain what is acceptable/unacceptable behavior. If they can’t understand the laws they’ve written then they should not be writing laws to begin with.

I’m also very much opposed to the hypocrisy in the media, both entertainment and news personnel/commentators. Far too many display a holier-than-thou attitude while guilty of the same or worse crimes than those they report on or challenge to answer for their alleged crimes.

As nudists we must stand up against criminal behavior of all kinds and especially sexual perversion which leads to public outcries against non-sexual nudity and more restrictions on our freedoms. Some of the claims made have included men exposing themselves to women staffers or colleagues by wearing open robes or wearing underwear during meetings. To me such acts, of even total nudity, aren’t inappropriate as long as there are no sexual overtones/undrtones involves. Behavior is the defining factor to me.

Jim

[naturaldon]

You mean, all this time congressmen and kingpins in this country have been making laws and lecturing us by legalizing abortion, legitimizing illegal immigration, lambasting the Second Amendment, laughing at Christianity, and loathing patriotism? The same people who are dirty-minded, sleazebagged, scumbagged, foulmouthed, and can’t keep their pants on or hands off? These people have proliferated their millions at the cost of povertizing the masses? These people have forced upon us their alphabet agenda, their liberal worldview, their joyride to communism? These people want us to change our moral virtues into vile mores? These people fathom not the stench of their own excreta while fanning the stink of it toward us? May Godly men everywhere pray and work for these people to be safely and without harm removed from public office and the public eye.

That's how I feel.

And Jim, great points.

[Englishman]

Much of this comes down, in the end, to an expression of power; 'I can grant you access to the place you desire, the career you crave or chance you want to take. But, in order to obtain those things you must follow my agenda & submit to my will irrespective of how you feel about so doing.' In truth, none of this is new; the stories of Dinah (Genesis 34) and Tamar (2 Samuel 13) show us that those with power will abuse it and in so doing they do not care whom they destroy or damage.

The media, on both sides of the Atlantic, love to pontificate about opression whilst perpetrating the very lack of morals they gleefully expose in others. In my country, we have had huge scandals about our Members of Parliament claiming exorbitant expenses while they cheerfully slash the budgets for care of the elderly & almost everything else. Power is not a bad thing; possessing it means you are in a position to get things done. The problem comes when the powerful assume that their position & wealth place them above the laws governing the rest of us; the less powerful &, indeed, the powerless. Sadly, the media is the only mouth most of the powerless have access to. I may not like a particular person or institution but if they are the only, often equally flawed, people who can speak out; then, maybe, for a time, one has to walk with them.

Amos says, 'Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness as an ever flowing stream' (Amos 5:24) and his is but one voice in the Bible declaring that we Christians have an obligation to stand with the abused & disempowered. After all, there would still be slavery & a slave trade were it not for Wilberforce & his ilk.

What is my response as a Christian naturist? Simply this, all abuse of power, in all its manifestations, is wrong. I may be happy naked but I have no right to force my nakedness on those unprepared for it, especially those who seek or need my help. One only has to look at the case of Stephen Gough, the UK's naked rambler, to see advancement for anyone, all of us, does not come from conflict. However, I digress, back to the topic; from what I have read & heard, most of these cases concern one person forcing themselves sexually on another. There is no excuse or justification for that, none at all.

Those who position themselves to take advantage of the chaos, usually hoping for swift financial gain, are equally wrong. To lay false accusations against anyone is abhorrent in the eyes of God but it's going to happen; in the end we are all fallen. Christians, no matter what they like to wear or not wear, are supposed, I believe, to seek truth & justice in our society. That it will probably never happen or come about should not stop us from having a go.

In the 1970's the Ugandan Bishop Festus Kivengere wrote a book called, 'I love Idi Amin'. The book, I think, was written after Amin, one of Africa's nastier tyrants, had the Archbishop of Uganda, whose name I cannot remember or discover, murdered. Bishop Festus reminds us, as others have done, that we need to forgive & that Jesus also died for the people we really can't stand, whose actions revolt us & whom we would not want to sit next to. In some cases, we are not going to get that choice as some of them will be there in Heaven with us; repentance works just as well for the evil as it does for the less evil. Having said that, I acknowledge the need for justice as well as forgiveness & that can be a very difficult tightrope to walk.

Personally, I can do little for the victims of the abuse & injustices currently in the news. But there other, less well known, victims in every town & they too need the support of Christians & that is something I can do something about. After all, judging is easy & it does make us feel good; the tough bit is walking alongside someone as they grow into their healing

[balaam]

Not Festus, Englishman, Festo Kivengere was the bishop in exile who wrote the book, and the martyred archbishop was Janani Luwum.

Archbishop Luwum's statue is one of the statues of martyrs at the entrance of Westminster Abbey, London.

[Englishman]

Thanks, Balaam much appreciated

[JimShedd112]

Well said Naturaldon and Englishman. Power certainly corrupts, unfortunately. Our American forefathers and founders were men of virtue who warned against excesses after living under tyranny but as time goes by many forgot/forget those lessons and fall into the trap of government “charity” so that those in power are able to remain in power and gain evermore power over the masses through reelection by the ignorant.

Jim

[Maverick]

All good responses so far, I think. Overall I agree with what everyone's said so far but as an American I certainly agree with Jim Shedd and Don.

I would contend that sexual harassment, while obviously not new, is directly tied to the sexual "freedom" (which, as sin, is actually slavery) that is rampant in society today. That, of course, is tied to an outright rejection of God (see Romans 1:18-32).

Keep the thoughts coming.

[dv8]

....I would contend that sexual harassment, while obviously not new, is directly tied to the sexual "freedom" (which, as sin, is actually slavery) that is rampant in society today. That, of course, is tied to an outright rejection of God (see Romans 1:18-32)....

I'm curious as to what makes you think this form of sexual harassment is tied to any sense of "sexual freedom" of today...? I suspect more that safer reporting and accountability allow us to hear more about what goes on, but men (often) in positions of power have taken sexual liberties for millennia, and I can't see how the modern climate significantly alters that. Witness pederasty among the Greeks, white American slave-owners of the 19th century, even a number of leaders of the Christian church through the 20th and into the 21st century. My contention is that it is a sense of entitlement that drives this behavior, and I hope to see that sense dwindle in the coming years as we become more and more aware of its reach into our behavioral choices.

[JimShedd112]

Great points dv8. Yes, there’s always been abuses against the weak/poor/lowly by the powerful and privileged. It stemmed from a sense of ownership and perhaps still does to a degree.

Jim

[Petros]

Note that while power certainly corrupts, it is also true that the corrupt and the would be corrupt seek power. As only one example: an authentic swine grad researcher met in Africa, who told a married woman there "Sooner or later you will sleep with me because I am the only available American," and told me "I want to finish my degree and get a post so I can have access to the female students,"

No, he was not joking - little or no sense of humor.

[JimShedd112]

A very valid point Petros. Yes, the corrupt will definitely seek power for their own ends.

Jim

[New_Adventurer]

Reminds me of an encounter at my nudist club. I was poolside sitting next to a woman who had a piece of paper from the Model's Guild of the SF Bay Area. I asked if she was a member, which started an interesting conversation. One point of which was that she liked being here (here being the nudist resort) because she was not the only nude in the room.

Nude is not lewd until it becomes one person asserting unwanted power over another another person. The news report about the guy exposing himself to one of his employees not wanting or expecting it is clearly a case of an unwanted and unwelcome behavior. One of my coworkers from long ago said she got an obscene phone call once and she thought it was hysterical, so she just started laughing and the guy hung up on her; not the reaction he was intending or expecting. Long ago I recall an newspaper article about an attempted rape. The woman kept her wits long enough to suggest welcome cooperation, but suggested he take a shower first. While he was doing so, she called the cops and had him arrested for burglary.

[naturaldon]

I see "freedom" in quotation marks. I think Mav is simply pointing out that people think they have sexual "freedom," which, of course is subjective. Everyone's degree of sexual "freedom" is measured differently, and that for millennia as has been pointed out.

I have sexual freedom (not in quotes) with my one and only wife. No others pop into my mind or heart, and this under the Lordship of Christ in our lives. Others, without Christ, have sexual "freedom" under the lordship of the world, perhaps.

But all in all, I know that we all agree here that harassment and "freedom" are not of the Kingdom. Good men reject these and greater and nobler men rise to fight these. And we are the latter men, here in the village.