You can’t legislate morality?!

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:25 pm

Bn2bnude
Then, let's suppose, for conjecture's sake, all the laws that legislate what you cannot do are in place and the majority of society agrees with them.
Don't look for that to happen.

Do you then start legislating to make society better... Let's say, "you must go to church", or "you must give to the poor".
It seems that this process becomes a slippery slope to total bondage to laws.

True. We are dealing with humanity, in and out of the church.
We have been on slippery slopes in America for a long time.
I don't see any movement to force people to go to church and I don't expect to see anything like that, unless our government goes the way of Nazi Germany and the government becomes god.
As far as forcing to give to the poor. (I see your purposeful comment), we all know that God called His people, His Church and the family to take care of the orphan, the widow and the poor. God did not call upon the government to steal from others to give to the poor (or in some cases lazy). When the government steals our money to give to the poor., we have less to give and we are also robbed of the blessing God gives to those that give to the poor.

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby vycna » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:27 pm

If morality being legislated involves general consensus it is not above being superseded every time. There are issues of equality that are protected, and this is the claim of the constitution. Though there is not at all wide acceptance of women being totally shirtless as a man may be, with ideas of morality included in the perspectives, that true equality is protected with the claim for that with the constitution, it is a matter of time with motivated people leading to change of legislation that is against it.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:23 pm

praireboy
"Scripture writers", I include the New Testament writers in that category, and the New Testament is a message of grace, certainly not of stoning.

Your right I used a generalization.

The "moral majority" was a failure. They did not have much of an effect on the laws. They reinforced the legalism already in the church.
I know there was, at one time, a lot of legalism in the church, but I don't see much, if any of that today. So I question the 'moral majority' reinforcing of legalism in the church. Most churches that I know of are afraid to talk of any sin, because they might offend someone. That is not right either.
The rest of the issues you raised on the moral majority I will hold judgment. I didn't follow them that closely.

Each of us has been called to proclaim the gospel, and without clear direction otherwise, that should get more of our effort than legal reform.

True, you are right on. Spreading the Gospel has to be our primary responsibility.

I would like to present a couple result of situations.

Because Christians were silent and many voted for the ungodly.
1 Homosexuality is legalized.
2 Churches may not be able to preach the Gospel concerning homosexuality. It may not even be classified as a sin, because of lawsuit or tax exempt status.
3 Children are taught in our schools homosexuality is normal. Our children are being taught to sin.

We as Christians stood silent as our school systems (in general) were turned over to those that hate God.
1 Godless evolution is taught as fact - children are brainwashed that there is no God.
2 Children are taught that there is no absolute right or wrong and that they are to make up their own set of morals and to ignore that of their family and church.
3 Our countries children being given this anti-God garbage is devastating. This was harden many hearts and many of these children. They may be unreachable with the Gospel.

Once again you are right, we must keep the our primary focus on reaching the lost.
However I believe we must also at least look at what we are allowing in our society.
We may be guilty of helping (by default) to harden the hearts of many, against the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
One last issue concerning society. It appears that the devil and his friends have taken control over much of our government, education, media and so on. We do not have the power or resources to overcome them in the flesh. We must use prayer to attack these works of the devil. By the prayer of many, maybe we can rescue many souls that the devil though he had.


Interesting discussions.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:07 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:The "moral majority" was a failure. They did not have much of an effect on the laws. They reinforced the legalism already in the church.
I know there was, at one time, a lot of legalism in the church, but I don't see much, if any of that today. So I question the 'moral majority' reinforcing of legalism in the church. Most churches that I know of are afraid to talk of any sin, because they might offend someone. That is not right either.
The rest of the issues you raised on the moral majority I will hold judgment. I didn't follow them that closely.

It largely depends on where you look and where you look from. For instance. If I am looking at a particular freedom from my eyes... Lets just say, for instance, recreational nudity, anyone who opposes that is "a legalist". On the other hand, if I look at someone else's freedom, let's say, for the sake of argument, drinking alcohol, and do not feel that is something a "Godly" person should do, I think the rest of the world is too liberal and I am not a legalist.

It all revolves around the "remove the plank from your own eye..." statement.

MoNatureMan wrote:I would like to present a couple result of situations.

Because Christians were silent and many voted for the ungodly.
1 Homosexuality is legalized.
2 Churches may not be able to preach the Gospel concerning homosexuality. It may not even be classified as a sin, because of lawsuit or tax exempt status.
3 Children are taught in our schools homosexuality is normal. Our children are being taught to sin.

We as Christians stood silent as our school systems (in general) were turned over to those that hate God.
1 Godless evolution is taught as fact - children are brainwashed that there is no God.
2 Children are taught that there is no absolute right or wrong and that they are to make up their own set of morals and to ignore that of their family and church.
3 Our countries children being given this anti-God garbage is devastating. This was harden many hearts and many of these children. They may be unreachable with the Gospel.

Once again you are right, we must keep the our primary focus on reaching the lost.
However I believe we must also at least look at what we are allowing in our society.
We may be guilty of helping (by default) to harden the hearts of many, against the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
One last issue concerning society. It appears that the devil and his friends have taken control over much of our government, education, media and so on. We do not have the power or resources to overcome them in the flesh. We must use prayer to attack these works of the devil. By the prayer of many, maybe we can rescue many souls that the devil though he had.


Interesting discussions.
In Him
Ron :cross:

Let me suggest, however, that the reason we are in this spot is because of things like...
  • a Gospel that ONLY emphasizes salvation (soterian) rather than a Gospel that emphasizes the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
  • A salvation that tries to improve people's actions without really letting God change their hearts
  • A "pop" eschatology that is escapist (Left Behind) that sows expectation that things are going to get worse before Christ comes.
  • A contrasting belief that by making things more "holy" (Pat Robertson/James Dobson) that we build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
  • A litany of clergy (pastors, priests, etc) who have the same moral issues as the rest of the world around them because (surprise) they have only changed their actions and not their hearts.
  • A reliance on a Book than the one who the book is about.
In other words... As much as you want a moral society and a society that is more Godly, we are not eating our own dog food.

(rant over -- apologies to all)
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:15 pm

bn2bnude wrote:Let me suggest, however, that the reason we are in this spot is because of things like...
  • a Gospel that ONLY emphasizes salvation (soterian) rather than a Gospel that emphasizes the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
  • A salvation that tries to improve people's actions without really letting God change their hearts
  • A "pop" eschatology that is escapist (Left Behind) that sows expectation that things are going to get worse before Christ comes.
  • A contrasting belief that by making things more "holy" (Pat Robertson/James Dobson) that we build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
  • A litany of clergy (pastors, priests, etc) who have the same moral issues as the rest of the world around them because (surprise) they have only changed their actions and not their hearts.
  • A reliance on a Book than the one who the book is about.
In other words... As much as you want a moral society and a society that is more Godly, we are not eating our own dog food.

(rant over -- apologies to all)


Ok.. Rant not over.

A couple more items.
  • We've let our clergy tell us what to believe rather than listening to God.
  • We've substituted clerical teaching for exploring the Bible on our own.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:46 am

bn2bnude

Yep.
I must really be slipping.
I have to agree.

I have to agree that so much of Christianity today is a (pardon the phrase) social club rather then getting to know and understand the Creator of the universe and the great salvation provided to us as described in His Holy Word.
I talk to so many Christians that know nothing about the Bible.
Even the heresies you spoke of most don't understand.
Some seem to think the time spend on Sunday morning is more then enough to know God.

I think the only thing I sort of disagree with is anti-nudity on Christianity part. It appears to be more a cultural thing then a religious or Christian thing. When I talk to people I find that non-religious people are as anti-nudity as churched people. Yes it is inside the church but appears to me more cultural.

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:06 am

MoNatureMan wrote:bn2bnude

Yep.
I must really be slipping.
I have to agree.



It's easy to slip. We become burdened by the cares of the world because we've forgotten Col 3:1-5. -- By the way, I'd call them distractions rather than heresies but....

Some music to enjoy while (not) slipping. :)

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:25 am

I've got to quit thinking after I post....

I've got two dogs. I expect them to act like dogs, no matter how much I train them, they will continue to act like dogs.

As a kid, I raised both cattle and pigs. I expected them to act like cattle and pigs.

Why, then, would I expect unregenerate people to act like those that are regenerate?
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby jochanaan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:54 am

bn2bnude wrote:I've got to quit thinking after I post....

I've got two dogs. I expect them to act like dogs, no matter how much I train them, they will continue to act like dogs.

As a kid, I raised both cattle and pigs. I expected them to act like cattle and pigs.

Why, then, would I expect unregenerate people to act like those that are regenerate?
People, thankfully, are not dogs, pigs or cattle. We can change. That's what the Gospel is all about! :D
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Jesus made reference to a non-Jewish woman as a dog.
Some people I know eat like pigs.
When school is over the sound of feet sounds like a heard of cattle.
I just couldn't resist that.

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:19 pm

jochanaan wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I've got to quit thinking after I post....

I've got two dogs. I expect them to act like dogs, no matter how much I train them, they will continue to act like dogs.

As a kid, I raised both cattle and pigs. I expected them to act like cattle and pigs.

Why, then, would I expect unregenerate people to act like those that are regenerate?
People, thankfully, are not dogs, pigs or cattle. We can change. That's what the Gospel is all about! :D


Hence HOPE!
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:02 am

The question deserves some careful thought:
"Can unregenerate people truly change prior to a conversion to Christ?

I guess those who would answer "no" to this question assume that Christ is incapable or unwilling to affect the life and character of an unbeliever.
What about someone who is both believer and unbeliever or neither?
Someone who says to Jesus, "I believe; help thou my unbelief".

I am not saying that the unsaved are saved; rather is there redemption work taking place in our heart that may or may not ultimately result in salvation later on?

Is there such thing as "The Elect" who are pre-Christian?


When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
Mark 12:34


Not all complete the journey:

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost you persuade me to be a Christian. Acts 26:28

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Matthew 19:22
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:29 am

In my case, I was given a major soul cleansing [not complete, but a good layer of dirt washed off].

THEN I was brought to belief in God.

THEN I was brought to understand the Christianity was the only reasonabled explanation.

That was a couple months.

Then step by step forward, and the process still goes on.

We get so many gifts blessings graces before salvation - who [but God] is to say when the fleeting moment of perfect ripeness happens?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:36 am

Rom 12:2 (NIV) wrote:Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


It seems to me, from this passage (I know, a bit out of context but check out Romans 12 for yourself) that this transformation is a long term process, not an off/on switch.

I can personally attest to that.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:23 am

Indeed.

There may be - I cannot speak with assurance - a point, a hurdle which when you surmount it you are THERE.

But the engine has to warm up, and like yesterday [three times stalled out] it casn takde a swhiled before it is running smoothly.

Compare - a human life:

fertilization - implantation - gestation - birth - infancy - He's still working on me.

the Cross - victory over Satan, death, but the headless chickden is still running around the yard

sanctification - for most [I wil not with assurance say for all] a decadeslong procdess.

In this universe while it lasts, nearly everything takes time to reach fulfilment.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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