You can’t legislate morality?!

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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby jochanaan » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Paul the Apostle, himself, didn't think he had obtained full maturity. I have come to think, with Tolkien, that "The Road goes ever on and on..." :)
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:07 pm

It ain't over till the fat angel sings....
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby jochanaan » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:28 pm

Petros wrote:It ain't over till the fat angel sings....
:lol: :D :mrgreen:
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby prairieboy » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:00 am

MoNatureMan wrote:praireboy

The "moral majority" was a failure. They did not have much of an effect on the laws. They reinforced the legalism already in the church.
I know there was, at one time, a lot of legalism in the church, but I don't see much, if any of that today.


What percentage of people do you see in the church that do not perceive their righteousness, and their right/ability to approach God, to be at least somewhat related to their spiritual performance within the preceding time frame? In practice, and not in theory? I believe that we are slowly moving toward a living realization that our rights are based on Jesus' righteousness, not on whether I lied/cheated/swore in the last twenty-four hours, but I believe that most "Christians" still have a strong performance orientation. Even those that are getting the message have relapses.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:59 am

We are - with all due respect to Kansas City and Toronto - between revivals. [this topic much discussed round here].

This means the Church - and pretty much any church - houses primarily those with a strong [arguably Job-like] faith but little direct sustaining perception of the Lord and those who can feed on the doctrines [Paul in his Saul days] and be sustained.

Which tends toward a dryness and formalism.

This is not in itself a bad thing - a strong formal element has sustained for example the Roman church through many local or widespread cycles of revival and drought, and has given it strength - the branches of the vine may wither and the leaves fall azway but the trunk is sound and ready to put out tenrils and blossom.

If your perception that we are tending out of that formalism / legalism / dare I say Pharisaism is correct that would suggest that Spring / revival is in the offing, but the vine is not yet lush.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:07 am

I'm back again. Been off the board for a few days.

I have to agree that we have the self righteous and Pharisees around.
However I think all on this board are clearly aware that no matter how good we get to be, our righteousness is still as filthy rags. It is only by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we can stand before a Holy God.

But my reference to legalism was that (at least in my area of the country) I haven't seen are heard of any legalism preached from the pulpit in years. It seems to have gone the other way. Today it seems to be more like we don't want to talk of anything being sin because we might offend. (seeker friendly)

Another one of my scenarios.
If we are afraid confront or to tell of what sin is!
If sinners don't recognize their sin!
Then why would they think they need Jesus?

In Him
Ron :cross:
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby ezduzit » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:45 am

MoNatureMan wrote:I'm back again. Been off the board for a few days.

I have to agree that we have the self righteous and Pharisees around.
However I think all on this board are clearly aware that no matter how good we get to be, our righteousness is still as filthy rags. It is only by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we can stand before a Holy God.

But my reference to legalism was that (at least in my area of the country) I haven't seen are heard of any legalism preached from the pulpit in years. It seems to have gone the other way. Today it seems to be more like we don't want to talk of anything being sin because we might offend. (seeker friendly)

Another one of my scenarios.
If we are afraid confront or to tell of what sin is!
If sinners don't recognize their sin!
Then why would they think they need Jesus?

In Him
Ron :cross:


John The Baptist did not "sugar coat" his message , neither did our Lord..........
IMO the same message is needed today...............
Ez

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:30 pm

My mother [stout Lutheran > Episcopalian] was once TERRIBLY offended when a visiting Anglican [a colleagee of mine at the U, as it happened preached, "Is there no Sin in [name of town]?" As far as I could make out, she felt it inappropriate for an Anglican priest to suggest there could be sin in a cutting edge college town.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Jon-Marc » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:37 pm

The government is more interested in legislating immorality than morality. There are laws protecting homosexuality and even allowing them to adopt. I just read about a male couple who have adopted 14 children, 7 boys and 7 girls. I was surprised they weren't all boys. :argh:
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby MoNatureMan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:29 am

Jon-Marc » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:37 pm
The government is more interested in legislating immorality than morality. There are laws protecting homosexuality and even allowing them to adopt. I just read about a male couple who have adopted 14 children, 7 boys and 7 girls. I was surprised they weren't all boys.

How long can this go on? Only by the mercy of God is America still here.
This is one of the areas that I don't understand God.
How can He allow this to go on, as children are molested by homosexuals?
How can He allow America to murder the unborn as He has?
Maybe He is waiting for His church to take a stand and be the salt.

In Him
Ron :cross:
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby ezduzit » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:30 pm

MoNatureMan wrote: Jon-Marc » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:37 pm
The government is more interested in legislating immorality than morality. There are laws protecting homosexuality and even allowing them to adopt. I just read about a male couple who have adopted 14 children, 7 boys and 7 girls. I was surprised they weren't all boys.

How long can this go on? Only by the mercy of God is America still here.
This is one of the areas that I don't understand God.
How can He allow this to go on, as children are molested by homosexuals?
How can He allow America to murder the unborn as He has?
Maybe He is waiting for His church to take a stand and be the salt.

In Him
Ron :cross:


Judgement will come first................
Ez
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby prairieboy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:03 am

Petros wrote:If your perception that we are tending out of that formalism / legalism / dare I say Pharisaism is correct that would suggest that Spring / revival is in the offing, but the vine is not yet lush.

My life was turned right side up a few years ago by reading Andrew Wommack who teaches grace, (and faith). Since then I keep hearing more and more people teaching grace. Lately I heard that Creflo Dollar had come under Andrew's teaching and has changed his teaching to remove the legalist aspect. Jesus promised that seekers after truth WILL be rewarded, they will be given the truth. Many of these truths require devine revelation. Those that are satisfied in their self-righteousness will not seek out further truth (at least in those areas), instead attacking all those who are different, and will die convinced that they alone are right in their beliefs.
Why teach sin in the church? Many (most?) Christians already feel condemned. They need to be taught, actually they need to know, that they are righteous in Christ; and all that it means. The church is not for sinners, it is comprised of the saints. We should be doing our evangelism on the streets, in the workplace, and in the neighbourhood. People know that they are sinners, or they are self-righteous. Jesus said that he did not come to save the righteous, but the sinners. If they are self-righteous, telling them that they are sinners will probably only make them angry.
I am not saying that we should not teach about sin, but that teaching needs to be balanced. There is much profit in living blameless before God, but condemning people about sin causes them to try to live "holy" in their own strength, instead of claiming Jesus' victory over sin.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:23 am

In my experience - and according to my observations of others - we do not really need someone giving us a syllabus of sins with probable test questions marked. God the spirit is QUITE capable of making me awate of my sins, as is Herself by one glance. The Spirit ALSO knows how to present the consciousness of sin so that it is a whole lot harder to ignore - and to resist - than when some hedge priest stands in the pulpit running through his recension of Leviticus. Pastor Doright is just as likely to handle it so as to persuade me to do more of whistling on Sunday or whatever the sin of the month is [I owe that one to Wee Coryl's forebears in the Kirk - sorry, Auld Lichts, but I'se a whistler and that's that.

Jesus had a word or two for Pharisses who went about inventing new letters of thew law while missing the spirit.

Not to say we cannot be moved to say a word in season - but I know meself that more often than not if I feel like reproving someone it is not God moving me to do it.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:44 am

prairieboy wrote:Why teach sin in the church? Many (most?) Christians already feel condemned. They need to be taught, actually they need to
know
, that they are righteous in Christ; and all that it means. The church is not for sinners, it is comprised of the saints. We should be doing our evangelism on the streets, in the workplace, and in the neighbourhood. People know that they are sinners, or they are self-righteous. Jesus said that he did not come to save the righteous, but the sinners. If they are self-righteous, telling them that they are sinners will probably only make them angry.
I am not saying that we should not teach about sin, but that teaching needs to be balanced. There is much profit in living blameless before God, but condemning people about sin causes them to try to live "holy" in their own strength, instead of claiming Jesus' victory over sin.

I keep coming back to John 3:17...
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
but it seems there is as much a propensity for Christians to condemn the world as not.
Last edited by bn2bnude on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You can’t legislate morality?!

Postby jochanaan » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:16 am

This discussion reminds me of the parable of the counterfeit detectors, often quoted from pulpits. Those who are trained to recognize counterfeit bills are NOT trained by studying counterfeits, but rather by studying the genuine bills deeply and minutely.
:)
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