Christian or Counterfeit

[ezduzit]

Simply as a reminder and entirely without fingerpointing, this from the Desert Fasthers:

When one holy man saw someone sinning, he wept, saying "He today, I tomorrow." However grave the sin you notice, do not judge the culprit, but belierve yourself a worse sinner.

Which of course [petros speaking, not the Fathers] applies to judging those who judge. And so on.

I see no judging being done in the responses , just Biblical truth. If the Bible condemns the sin , then that settles it , I for one have heard for many years "lack of love " and "judge not lest...." used as a counter argument / justification for ones sin .
Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for our sins and to cleanse us from our sin , not to allow us to continue in sin.
To point out the errors / sins of another is not incorrect , being self righteous , or legalistic .
Are we not to warn the wicked ?

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezekiel 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezekiel 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ez

[ezduzit]

I suspect some will react negatively to this but I ask that you hear him and his elders out. It is a message that is filled with Biblical study and emotional struggles.

I don't have time to watch an hour-long video of any kind, much less one attempting to explain why the Bible says that homosexual sin is suddenly blessed after thousands of years of being detestable and abominable to God himself.

I understand that some people have been socialized to same-sex attraction or have some genetic abnormality that leaves them confused.

Straight or otherwise, the will of God is clear: Chastity before marriage and fidelity within marriage (to an opposite sex spouse). Those with hormonal problems and who cannot be attracted to the opposite sex may serve the Lord through a life of celibacy. Those who live the single life must work extra hard to find camaraderie and community. I am not opposed to monastic orders for such people. It may be the most godly path in that circumstance.

Sexual sin is particularly destructive to one's body and psyche and is damnable literally. But homosexual sin is worse, symptomatic of rebellion against God that goes beyond the natural to reach new depths of perversion. It is very hard for those caught in this web to escape the path to damnation.[/quote]


Ez[/quote]
I pray that both you, EZ and Ramblinman are afforded much more grace when issues of disagreement (such as recreational nudity) are brought up than you've given me (and those whom I know struggling with homosexuality in the context of church).

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to force a change in belief, just that you listen to why there are differences.[/quote]

EZ said
I did not mean for the post ( ) to imply I lacked compassion for those struggling with the sin of homosexuality or any other sin. As often said we (as Christians) are to hate the sin but love the sinner.
It is my prayer that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ez

[Petros]

Pooh - i dd a great reply what got et.

Anyway - when I said I was not pointing a finger, I was not pointing a finger, nor judging anyone as judgemental.

Leave it there.

[ezduzit]

Pooh - i dd a great reply what got et.

Anyway - when I said I was not pointing a finger, I was not pointing a finger, nor judging anyone as judgemental.

Leave it there.

Ok,
Ez

[bn2bnude]

I did not mean for the post ( ) to imply I lacked compassion for those struggling with the sin of homosexuality or any other sin. As often said we (as Christians) are to hate the sin but love the sinner.
It is my prayer that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ez

To what length, then, should we love the sinner?

[MoNatureMan]

bn2bnude

To what length, then, should we love the sinner?

Short Version
We do not show love by ignoring the sin and calling it normal. To do so is pardon my bluntness 'helping to usher people into hell'.
We need to show them the truth of the Gospel.
We need to lead them to repentance.
We need to help them along that journey.

Ignoring sin and calling it normal is not love.
In Him
Ron

[ezduzit]

I did not mean for the post ( ) to imply I lacked compassion for those struggling with the sin of homosexuality or any other sin. As often said we (as Christians) are to hate the sin but love the sinner.
It is my prayer that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ez

To what length, then, should we love the sinner?

As stated below ...We do not condone the sin , but make it clear that the Bible does....
1 Cor.13 provides our guidelines for love. in a nut shell >love them enough to tell them the truth , it is only the truth that will set them free
Ez

[Bare_Truth]

So, in the opening of the Video, he said we would hear from the elders of the congregation after he spoke. Too bad the video did not include them.

I have read a credible argument that the concept of the unpardonable sin is any sin which
-- you know God says is a sin,
-- that the holy spirit moves you to understand is a sin,
and
-- yet you choose, in full understanding, to not turn away from that sin but rather embrace it.
The point being that to do so is the true despite of the Holy Spirit and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that you regard and declare by your actions that the moving of the spirit is a lie. By this method the sin becomes one that you will not repent of and hence it cannot be forgiven.

It seems to me that the embracing of homosexual acts would certainly fall under the definition of sin to any reasonable reading of the Bible, and that to embrace the concept that homosexuality is good and embrace it is an utter rejection of God's instruction and truth.

--- The foregoing is not intended to change the topic to a definition of the unpardonable sin, but I thought it might be a relevant aside, given the grip that homosexuality seems to have on its practitioners.

[Ramblinman]

I remain convinced that homosexual sin is symptomatic of a departure from God that exceeds natural sin (v. 26-27)
Romans Chapter 1, beginning roughly at verse 22 describes this gradual departure and descent into darkness.
God does not strive with us forever, but when we stray far enough, allows the folly to manifest itself fully.
The humiliation of our bodies with these unspeakable acts is God's one last life raft to us, a wake-up call to the few who have some lingering spark of glory to see that they are wallowing in degradation and filth.

But it seems from the verses that follow that homosexual perversion is merely the most heinous symptom of an entire culture of God-rejection. People who approve of homosexuality are part of this culture of death and godlessness whether they have homosexual urges or not.

The Bible speaks of the "natural man", the condition of your garden variety of sinner. This first chapter of Romans is a physician's handbook of the soul, describing the next step downward, the "sub-natural" man (my words) whose homosexuality is simply one of the more common signs of deep rejection of God, tremendous hardening of the heart.

And the addictive nature, the deep rebellion, spiritual blindness for those in this deeper dungeon makes it difficult for the gospel message to reach their hardened hearts.

I have met a man who was formerly an active homosexual, now happily married.
I know that some would argue that he must be bi-sexual and simply chose one of his options.
I cannot rule out the possibility that some men are so damaged either psychologically or biologically that they cannot be attracted to a woman's body.
Indeed I do not find all women equally attractive, but if I loved a woman, would that love bring our bodies together to express that love even if age, obesity or other odd physical features did not make her physically desirable in the conventional sense? I know that some couples turn the lights down low rather than be distracted by their physical imperfections by the harsh glare of bright light.

But back to the topic at hand, I think that we have a scriptural case that the so-called bi-sexual man is more likely a man who has not totally lost his natural desire for the opposite sex (even if he sinfully fulfills that desire outside of marriage). Bi-sexuality may actually be more of a spiritual half-way point of depravity than a psycho-sexual condition.

I am not addressing those whose genetic or hormonal conditions leave them with ambiguous gender.
Jesus did address these people, calling them eunuchs. Their duty was clear: celibacy according to scripture.
And Jesus's point was that those of us with normal strong hetero-urges should live as though we were celibate eunuchs (until marriage allows a godly fulfillment of those desires with a Christian mate) (opposite sex of course).

[bn2bnude]

So, in the opening of the Video, he said we would hear from the elders of the congregation after he spoke. Too bad the video did not include them.

Thank you for taking the time to watch the video. I agree, I would have loved to see the follow up discussions... What I found out by searching on line...

1. About a month (March) later the congregation voted study for a time and to vote later.
2. In May they voted to keep him as pastor and leave the SBC (Southern Baptist)

I have read a credible argument that the concept of the unpardonable sin is any sin which
-- you know God says is a sin,
-- that the holy spirit moves you to understand is a sin,
and
-- yet you choose, in full understanding, to not turn away from that sin but rather embrace it.
The point being that to do so is the true despite of the Holy Spirit and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that you regard and declare by your actions that the moving of the spirit is a lie. By this method the sin becomes one that you will not repent of and hence it cannot be forgiven.

I don't know if I agree with the definition but think it has some credibility.

It seems to me that the embracing of homosexual acts would certainly fall under the definition of sin to any reasonable reading of the Bible, and that to embrace the concept that homosexuality is good and embrace it is an utter rejection of God's instruction and truth.

--- The foregoing is not intended to change the topic to a definition of the unpardonable sin, but I thought it might be a relevant aside, given the grip that homosexuality seems to have on its practitioners.

There are a lot of things that we tend to use the Bible to control. We read through cultural filters, familial filters, filters of prejudice, etc.

Certainly, there are things in the Bible that are clearly sin. Lists like the 10 commandments, or those found in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5. The 1 Corinthians passage was addressed in the video, as was Romans 1.

One thing I've noticed in both your assumptions and Ramblinman... There seems to be an underlying belief that being attracted to the same gender is a conscious choice. I'm sure there are many things that go into this. Cultural, environmental, etc. I don't remember, however, at 5 years old (Kindergarten), making a choice to hold hands with Julie rather than Dean. Both friends.

Science seems to be close to isolating a series of genetic markers that may control this. I honestly don't know. In saying things like "the grip that..." implies that you've already decided that there is conscious choice made.

[bn2bnude]

To what length, then, should we love the sinner?

As stated below ...We do not condone the sin , but make it clear that the Bible does....
1 Cor.13 provides our guidelines for love. in a nut shell >love them enough to tell them the truth , it is only the truth that will set them free
Ez

There is a pretty heavy underlying current that we can't ignore here.

Your implication is that "the truth" here is that what they are doing is sin.

In my Bible, Jesus said HE is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE.

Notice that the "American" salvation message is summed up by "The Four Spiritual Laws".

1. God loves you and has a plan for your life
2. Man is sinful and separated from God. Therefore, he cannot know and experience God's love and plan for his life.
3. Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin. Through Him you can know and experience God's love and plan for your life.
4. We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord;then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives.

This, however, manifests itself in a simpler message...

• You sin because you do ??? so you are going to hell when you die!
• You need to repent and accept Jesus
• Pray a prayer

This may "work" but is really a gospel(?) of sin management, not the Gospel of Jesus.

I think of the "Woman at the Well". Jesus told her the "good news"... That he was here and that he was the source of living water. His calling out her current situation was not to point out her sin but to prove his truthfulness...

While we tend to make a big deal of repentance, Jesus never called for repentance in that situation. In fact there are only 2 passages in scripture where Jesus did tell the people "Go and sin no more".

Are we asking more of the people we talk to than Jesus did?

[Ramblinman]

One thing I've noticed in both your assumptions and Ramblinman... There seems to be an underlying belief that being attracted to the same gender is a conscious choice. I'm sure there are many things that go into this. Cultural, environmental, etc. I don't remember, however, at 5 years old (Kindergarten), making a choice to hold hands with Julie rather than Dean. Both friends.

Science seems to be close to isolating a series of genetic markers that may control this. I honestly don't know. In saying things like "the grip that..." implies that you've already decided that there is conscious choice made.

Yes, conscious choice is the best explanation.
Commit a felony, get arrested for it, convicted and then go to most prisons.
Fairly soon, you will be surrounded by homosexual activity, perhaps victimized by it, in proportions that far, far exceed the outside population gay/straight ratio.
For many guys, sex is so compelling a desire, in the absence of women, men will do nicely even though their "plumbing" does not lend itself to physical union very readily.

[jochanaan]

I remain convinced that homosexual sin is symptomatic of a departure from God that exceeds natural sin (v. 26-27)
Romans Chapter 1, beginning roughly at verse 22 describes this gradual departure and descent into darkness.
God does not strive with us forever, but when we stray far enough, allows the folly to manifest itself fully.
The humiliation of our bodies with these unspeakable acts is God's one last life raft to us, a wake-up call to the few who have some lingering spark of glory to see that they are wallowing in degradation and filth.

But it seems from the verses that follow that homosexual perversion is merely the most heinous symptom of an entire culture of God-rejection. People who approve of homosexuality are part of this culture of death and godlessness whether they have homosexual urges or not.

The Bible speaks of the "natural man", the condition of your garden variety of sinner. This first chapter of Romans is a physician's handbook of the soul, describing the next step downward, the "sub-natural" man (my words) whose homosexuality is simply one of the more common signs of deep rejection of God, tremendous hardening of the heart.

And the addictive nature, the deep rebellion, spiritual blindness for those in this deeper dungeon makes it difficult for the gospel message to reach their hardened hearts...

Hmmm...I'm not so sure I agree with that. The Romans passage goes on to include:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful...

(vs. 29-31)

And other Bible passages make it clear that if one breaks one point of God's Law but not others, one is still guilty of Lawbreaking and in need of salvation.

Therefore I cannot say that homosexual activity is any worse than any other sin.

And "homosexuality" as it's commonly understood now, that is, a consistent sexual attraction towards the same gender and not the opposite gender, seems more in the nature of an addiction or dysfunction than a "sign of God's judgment."

[Petros]

There seems to be a sense that homosexuality [and of course heterosexuality] is / sometimes is / usually is a trait hardwired in body and soul or [less probably] in spirit. Comparable to the inabilty to stand sunlight or a preference for low temperatures.

I will not here worry whether homosexuality is untitary or a packet of different conditiond we lump together.

I have not so far hit convincing evidence - distinguished from confident assertions - that speaks to homosexuality as our choice or chosen for us.

It would be good to HAVE such evidence before basing arguments on one position or the other.

[ezduzit]

There is a pretty heavy underlying current that we can't ignore here.

Your implication is that "the truth" here is that what they are doing is sin.

Not an "implication" it is fact based upon the word Of God

In my Bible, Jesus said HE is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Notice that the "American" salvation message is summed up by "The Four Spiritual Laws".

"American" ? and yes repentance has been discarded / taken out of the message , thus we have a multitude of "empty "professions but no real change of heart or life . Note
Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This may "work" but is really a gospel(?) of sin management, not the Gospel of Jesus.

I think of the "Woman at the Well". Jesus told her the "good news"... That he was here and that he was the source of living water. His calling out her current situation was not to point out her sin but to prove his truthfulness...

While we tend to make a big deal of repentance, Jesus never called for repentance in that situation. In fact there are only 2 passages in scripture where Jesus did tell the people "Go and sin no more".

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Are we asking more of the people we talk to than Jesus did?

I don`t think so
Ez