Christian or Counterfeit

What does Christ teach about the issues of life? Make sure you back up your opinions with scripture, and always be courteous and polite in talking with others.<P>Only Permanent and Native Residents may post here.

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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:58 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:I remain convinced that homosexual sin is symptomatic of a departure from God that exceeds natural sin (v. 26-27)
Romans Chapter 1, beginning roughly at verse 22 describes this gradual departure and descent into darkness.
God does not strive with us forever, but when we stray far enough, allows the folly to manifest itself fully.
The humiliation of our bodies with these unspeakable acts is God's one last life raft to us, a wake-up call to the few who have some lingering spark of glory to see that they are wallowing in degradation and filth.

But it seems from the verses that follow that homosexual perversion is merely the most heinous symptom of an entire culture of God-rejection. People who approve of homosexuality are part of this culture of death and godlessness whether they have homosexual urges or not.

The Bible speaks of the "natural man", the condition of your garden variety of sinner. This first chapter of Romans is a physician's handbook of the soul, describing the next step downward, the "sub-natural" man (my words) whose homosexuality is simply one of the more common signs of deep rejection of God, tremendous hardening of the heart.

And the addictive nature, the deep rebellion, spiritual blindness for those in this deeper dungeon makes it difficult for the gospel message to reach their hardened hearts...
Hmmm...I'm not so sure I agree with that. The Romans passage goes on to include:
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful...
(vs. 29-31)

And other Bible passages make it clear that if one breaks one point of God's Law but not others, one is still guilty of Lawbreaking and in need of salvation.

Therefore I cannot say that homosexual activity is any worse than any other sin.

And "homosexuality" as it's commonly understood now, that is, a consistent sexual attraction towards the same gender and not the opposite gender, seems more in the nature of an addiction or dysfunction than a "sign of God's judgment."


Jochanaan, I agree that homosexual behavior is not the same as homosexual attraction.
Habit patterns can be produced by a sinful past yet the temptation to slip into unwanted sin after Christian conversion can remain to dog us.

I was focusing my attention in this discussion more toward those who have no intention of abandoning same-sex sexual acts.

So going back to the first chapter of Romans, Paul tells us that first comes the need to shove God out of our conscience in order that we might fully enjoy guilt-free sin. With our minds darkened by our own departure from the Lord, we sink ever deeper into depravity.

I did not say that homosexual acts are the only fruit of this rebellion. We read in other passages about the natural man, (in the negative sense) committing adultery, fornication with opposite sex partners. But Paul discusses homosexual sex as a prime example of deviance so extreme that it goes beyond the usual temptations we are all prone to.

All acts of sin are manifestations of the lethal disease of SIN, we can be at various stages of rebellion against God just as surely as we could be at various stages in our sanctification toward the image of Christ.
Some lost people are "not far from the kingdom of God" while others Jesus considers hardened against him.

Take the case of sinners who came humbly to Jesus versus the arrogant Pharisees who were in deeper rebellion.

Another example is incest: It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby MoNatureMan » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:46 pm

Pardon my logic but this is so simple a child could understand. Why can't Christians.
Is God evil or good? Of course He is all good
Since God is all good, He can not create evil. However He can and does create beings with a free choice.
God clearly declared homosexuality to be evil
So if God can not create evil (will not allow Himself), how can you say He created people to be homosexual?

In Him
Ron :cross:
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:53 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:Pardon my logic but this is so simple a child could understand. Why can't Christians.
Is God evil or good? Of course He is all good
Since God is all good, He can not create evil. However He can and does create beings with a free choice.
God clearly declared homosexuality to be evil
So if God can not create evil (will not allow Himself), how can you say He created people to be homosexual?

In Him
Ron :cross:

Ron, let's consider a Bible passage that comes pretty close to this issue:
In the verses I discussed previously in which Jesus discussed eunuchs, he said that some were born eunuchs, some were made eunuchs by men and some are eunuchs for the kingdom of God's sake.
Granted a eunuch is not a homosexual, but obviously it was not God's original plan that we be sterile or any host of ailments and genetic disorders.

This begs the question: to what extent is homosexuality predisposed by genetic disorder?
My contention is that it is irrelevant because no one is excused from murder, rape, theft or any crimes because "I was born that way". If mental illness makes homosexual behavior more likely, those afflicted are still expected to refrain.

And I have heard that some boys who were abused are more likely to turn homosexual as adults. That may or may not be true, but we each must answer to God.
So while we can't judge the exact degree of rebellion in each man's heart, in general homosexual activity indicates an extreme rebellion against the will of God, extreme perversion, unnatural vice (as opposed to natural vice).

A man with genetic problems can still claim God as his creator, but he can't claim that God "gave him" the disorder. That is tantamount to blasphemy.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby jochanaan » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:10 pm

Ramblinman wrote:...So while we can't judge the exact degree of rebellion in each man's heart, in general homosexual activity indicates an extreme rebellion against the will of God, extreme perversion, unnatural vice (as opposed to natural vice)...
...or extreme damage? :cry:
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:24 pm

Oy, lost another. Again, Deus vult, abbreviate:

Isaiah 45:7
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:53 pm

ezduzit wrote:There is a pretty heavy underlying current that we can't ignore here.

Your implication is that "the truth" here is that what they are doing is sin.

Not an "implication" it is fact based upon the word Of God

In my Bible, Jesus said HE is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE.


John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Notice that the "American" salvation message is summed up by "The Four Spiritual Laws".

"American" ? and yes repentance has been discarded / taken out of the message , thus we have a multitude of "empty "professions but no real change of heart or life . Note
Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, [b]that they which do[/b] such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This may "work" but is really a gospel(?) of sin management, not the Gospel of Jesus.

I think of the "Woman at the Well". Jesus told her the "good news"... That he was here and that he was the source of living water. His calling out her current situation was not to point out her sin but to prove his truthfulness...

While we tend to make a big deal of repentance, Jesus never called for repentance in that situation. In fact there are only 2 passages in scripture where Jesus did tell the people "Go and sin no more".

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Are we asking more of the people we talk to than Jesus did?


I don`t think so
Ez[/quote]

2 Cor 6:3-10 (KJV) wrote:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.


Verse 3 in other translations say "We put no stumbling block in anyone's path" (NIV).

I don't know when the last time you spoke with a same sex couple. I ran across one a week ago who was quite antagonistic towards Christ. Why? Because other Christians have put up a stumbling block or given them reason for offense.

You can be right and drive people away from God.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby ezduzit » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:31 pm

bn2bnude wrote:I don't know when the last time you spoke with a same sex couple. I ran across one a week ago who was quite antagonistic towards Christ. Why? Because other Christians have put up a stumbling block or given them reason for offense.

You can be right and drive people away from God.


Did they tell you that? If so describe the stumbling block / offense please......

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Ez
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 pm

ezduzit wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I don't know when the last time you spoke with a same sex couple. I ran across one a week ago who was quite antagonistic towards Christ. Why? Because other Christians have put up a stumbling block or given them reason for offense.

You can be right and drive people away from God.


Did they tell you that? If so describe the stumbling block / offense please......

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Ez

I think we've reached an impasse. We can dual with references from the Bible all day long but it bears no fruit.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:06 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:...... Since God is all good, He can not create evil. .....

Ron, could you square that with Isa 45:7 for us?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:35 am

Options:

A. Isaiah 45:7 is [in one way or another] NOT part of the inspired word of God

B. Somebody OTHER than God is in the creation business, ever so Gnostic

C. Certain things that to us appear evil are in fact part of what God saw and sees timelerssly as "very good".

Have I left one out?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:18 am

Petros wrote:Options:

A. Isaiah 45:7 is [in one way or another] NOT part of the inspired word of God

B. Somebody OTHER than God is in the creation business, ever so Gnostic

C. Certain things that to us appear evil are in fact part of what God saw and sees timelerssly as "very good".

Have I left one out?

D. As is human habit, we pick and choose the verses that suit our beliefs best and conveniently forget about the ones that do no.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:16 am

ezduzit wrote:Did they tell you that? If so describe the stumbling block / offense please......

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Ez

By the way, yes, they expressed their hatred and frustration with Christians because they were told by them that their lifestyles are wrong..

By the way, pulling verses out of context to make a point is poor form. Most every verse must be in context to get proper meaning...
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:33 am

"D. As is human habit, we pick and choose the verses that suit our beliefs best and conveniently forget about the ones that do no."

Fo tru. In formal work, of course, we are expected to deal with the counterarguments.

AND to be clear on where the evidence does not let us describe the elephant adequately.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:04 am

Petros wrote:Options:

A. Isaiah 45:7 is [in one way or another] NOT part of the inspired word of God

B. Somebody OTHER than God is in the creation business, ever so Gnostic

C. Certain things that to us appear evil are in fact part of what God saw and sees timelerssly as "very good".

Have I left one out?

Yes, you left one out...

God takes ultimate responsibility for evil, even when caused by the adversary.
But he also gleefully uses adversity to his own ends to thwart the adversary's intentions.
You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. Genesis 50:20

Answer C is incorrect because evil is real, not merely the appearance of evil. If left unchallenged, it would indeed work at cross purposes to the will of God. But it is not left unchallenged!

God has made us co-creators, so waits on our prayers to bestow some blessings.
...yet ye have not, because ye ask not Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2-3

Conversely, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby jjsledge » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:13 am

David wrote:

2Sa_1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
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