Christian or Counterfeit

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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:04 am

WHICH some have taken one paticular way.

WHICH has to be reconciled with David's pretty solid heterosexual creds.

Ramblinman:

Are we agreed on who created the adversary?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby jochanaan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:56 am

And yet, what is evil but good twisted? For example, the natural desire for companionship and progeny through God's natural order gets twisted into a desire for homosexual activity--or violence during "The Act of Marriage" (Tim and Beverly LaHaye)--or any of a number of activities that may have very little to do with normal, loving sexual intercourse.

Another example: Lucifer was, if "traditional sources" have this right, one of the most powerful of the archangels, not evil in the beginning. He only became evil after choosing to allow himself to envy God's position and authority. Did God "create" the Adversary? No, God created a great angel, and the angel chose to turn away from God and hurt others.

Did God "make" or "create" all these activities and choices? Or did He merely create us with the ability to imagine them and the free will to do them? I favor the latter. I tend to think that God would not have made us with free will if He didn't intend us to use it. We can then choose whether to do the loving thing or the hurtful thing. (I tend to avoid the word "sin" these days, simply because people have so many conflicting ideas about it. Easier to use words we can all understand and relate to.) That's the danger of making creatures that have free will: they can turn against you.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby natman » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:56 pm

To be clear, God does not create "evil". He created the POTENTIAL for evil by giving us free will to accept and follow His decrees or to reject them.

And in Isaiah 45:7, God is not saying that He creates "evil", but that He creates "distress" or "calamity", which in and among themselves are not "evil" but can be used to discipline those who are committing evil.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:37 pm

Petros wrote:...Ramblinman:

Are we agreed on who created the adversary?


I am not sure if we agree.

God created Lucifer, the perfect sinless archangel, not Satan the adversary, but he created this being with the freedom to choose to obey the Lord or reject the Lord.
This freedom is essential for love to exist, but it is not without risk.
But God accepted the risk that Lucifer might become Satan and so it was.
In that narrow sense of the word, God created the adversary, in that narrow sense of the word, God is responsible for evil.
But God redeems us from evil and will purge the whole world of it someday.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby ezduzit » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:01 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
Petros wrote:...Ramblinman:

Are we agreed on who created the adversary?


I am not sure if we agree.

God created Lucifer, the perfect sinless archangel, not Satan the adversary, but he created this being with the freedom to choose to obey the Lord or reject the Lord.
This freedom is essential for love to exist, but it is not without risk.
But God accepted the risk that Lucifer might become Satan and so it was.
In that narrow sense of the word, God created the adversary, in that narrow sense of the word, God is responsible for evil.
But God redeems us from evil and will purge the whole world of it someday.


Since God is omniscience , He knew before hand that Satan would rebel / fall.
But to create evil would be sin, would it not? therefore God is not responsible for evil.
He knew Adam and Eve would disobey, did he not ? but our salvation and His Plan of Salvation was laid down before the foundation of the earth.

Ez
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:55 pm

ezduzit wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:
Petros wrote:...Ramblinman:

Are we agreed on who created the adversary?


I am not sure if we agree.

God created Lucifer, the perfect sinless archangel, not Satan the adversary, but he created this being with the freedom to choose to obey the Lord or reject the Lord.
This freedom is essential for love to exist, but it is not without risk.
But God accepted the risk that Lucifer might become Satan and so it was.
In that narrow sense of the word, God created the adversary, in that narrow sense of the word, God is responsible for evil.
But God redeems us from evil and will purge the whole world of it someday.


Since God is omniscience , He knew before hand that Satan would rebel / fall.
But to create evil would be sin, would it not? therefore God is not responsible for evil.
He knew Adam and Eve would disobey, did he not ? but our salvation and His Plan of Salvation was laid down before the foundation of the earth.

Ez
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


God did not create evil, but he accepts responsibility for that which he did not create.
The cross is the greatest example of this.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby MoNatureMan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:10 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:...... Since God is all good, He can not create evil. .....

Ron, could you square that with Isa 45:7 for us?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

OK Translation issue.
Change my word evil to sin. Reworded

Pardon my logic but this is so simple a child could understand. Why can't Christians.
Is God sinful or holy? Of course He is all holy
Since God is all holy, He can not sin or create sin. However He can and does create beings with a free choice.
God clearly declared homosexuality to be sin
So if God can not sin, or create sin, how can you say He created people to be homosexual?

bn2bnude
Verse 3 in other translations say "We put no stumbling block in anyone's path" (NIV).


Sin is the stumbling block. If we ignore, encourage, or say sin is normal that puts us on very dangerous ground. God clearly says homosexuality is sin. If we say it isn't, we are in sin.

Part of the reason homosexuality is such a hot button today is because homosexuals (not all) are pushing the agenda, to make it normal and equal to or better than traditional Biblical marriage. Their agenda has and is affecting our young people.

I can not understand how or why Christians would support that agenda.

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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby ezduzit » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:14 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
God did not create evil, but he accepts responsibility for that which he did not create.
The cross is the greatest example of this.


Looks like we are right back where we started from ..you`re saying God is responsible for evil ?

responsibility
n.noun
The state, quality, or fact of being responsible.
Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden.

Me thinks not
Ez
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby MoNatureMan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:20 pm

That is one of the things we can not even comprehend about the greatness of God.
He can create a being, knowing what they will do, but at the same time not interfere with what they do because of free will.

Ron
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:15 pm

MoNatureMan wrote:bn2bnude
Verse 3 in other translations say "We put no stumbling block in anyone's path" (NIV).


Sin is the stumbling block. If we ignore, encourage, or say sin is normal that puts us on very dangerous ground. God clearly says homosexuality is sin. If we say it isn't, we are in sin.

I am not arguing that same sex relationships are not sin... At least in my book. Others who claim Christianity are more generous than I am.

I am arguing, however, that we place stumbling blocks in the way of anyone who sins when we use the Bible as a sledge hammer to try to drive people into heaven.

Just to be clear, however, I don't consider the Stumbling Block Paul was talking about to be "sin". Elsewhere (1 Cor. 9:19-23) Paul makes another statement that is somewhat equivalent...

Let's look at his approach at Mars Hill... He could have stood up and railed about how idolatry was a sin and those practicing it were doomed to hell. Instead, he approached them on common ground, offering them the "unknown God". Some say it was a fruitless endeavor but I would disagree.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:34 pm

Fact - which some may not gol to, but which I see as inescapable -

There is MYSTERY. God and his doings - the ultimate MYSTERY - for me at least ineluctable conclusion from Job.

God - with his paradoxes, justice and medrcy, creating good and evil, and so on - is in literal and derived sense incomprehensible. Little point ultimately arguing about it or from, it.
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The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:03 am

Petros wrote:Fact - which some may not gol to, but which I see as inescapable -

There is MYSTERY. God and his doings - the ultimate MYSTERY - for me at least ineluctable conclusion from Job.

God - with his paradoxes, justice and medrcy, creating good and evil, and so on - is in literal and derived sense incomprehensible. Little point ultimately arguing about it or from, it.
.

I disagree completely that an argument (in the cordial sense of the word) is of little value.
Iron sharpenth iron.
I have learned much from friendly discourse about the Lord whom we love and of whom we also stand in awe and are beginning to know. We can learn more about him.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby Petros » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:36 pm

A discussion of the data, with or without agreement on a conclusion, of course is most useful, as pleasant as profitable.

Acrimony - which often rears its empty head - can be a spoiler, but if it can be avoided all may be well.

But didymist as I am, I have to buy into the Holmesian dictum on theorizing in the absense of data, and my sense of such things as good and evil, oe the end Times complex, to name only two, is that adequate daya are not in our grasp.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby prairieboy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:38 am

I finally took the time to view the video. I was going to edit this tomorrow and then post it, but then decided to post it now, so it might seem a little disjointed. Oh well.

I believe, and have for a long time, that the point of Romans chapter one is not that the individual became so depraved, but that the society overall became so depraved. Therefore, homosexuality is not only a sin of the individual, but of the people of the country. The church is called to be the salt, we are to influence those around us to righteous living, and we can see periods in North American history where the church has done that. We have not done that for a long time, and so, if you wish to point a finger at a homosexual, be aware that three fingers are pointing back at you and me.

I do not believe that people are born homosexual, in fact, recently scientists have said that does not happen. I believe that homosexuality is demonic. There are many stories of homosexuals who did not wish to be homosexual, but the church could not help them, only counseled them to abstain from sex. What would Jesus have done if a homosexual had asked him for help? Would the person have left him still desiring homosexual relations? No! He would have been helped. We, the church, are Christ on the earth so why don’t we help them? I recently listened to the story of a man who had a homosexual spirit cast out of him, and then he received prayer that he would desire his wife. I also have a good friend who was a homosexual. He was very fortunate to become a believer, and then attend a church where he was accepted. They did NOT accept his homosexuality, and when he said that he was born that way they told him that was not true. They told him that as he read the word, the word would bring light and truth. One day as he was studying his Bible the Holy Spirit revealed to him that “his” homosexuality was a lie of satan that had kept him in bondage, and he was freed. Most of the church does not teach a God of power. Oh, He had power back then, and He will have when Jesus returns, but right now He really can’t do too much for you. I knew a man, a good Christian man, who excused his anger by saying that God made him that way. That is no different than the homosexual that says God made him that way.
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Re: Christian or Counterfeit

Postby MoNatureMan » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:51 am

bn2bnude
I am arguing, however, that we place stumbling blocks in the way of anyone who sins when we use the Bible as a sledge hammer to try to drive people into heaven.

Just to be clear, however, I don't consider the Stumbling Block Paul was talking about to be "sin". Elsewhere (1 Cor. 9:19-23) Paul makes another statement that is somewhat equivalent...


1Cor 9:19-23 uses reference to social classes and religiosity.
Hitting people over the head with their sin, doesn't sound too good, but that comes down to an individual person that is to receive the message. That is where we have to listen to the Holy Spirit, when we are presenting the Gospel. Some people you are only to give some examples and leave it to the next person to carry on or maybe the Holy Spirit to speak to them. Others may readily see their sin and turn to Christ. And yes there are some that you have to hit over the head with their sin and 'hell fire and brimstone'. All of that needs to be tempered with the fact that we also have sinned and would be going to hell if it was not for what Christ did for us. People are different and presenting the Gospel to them often uses a different approach. Sometimes the ones are most hardened in their sin are the ones that need the 'hit over the head approach'.

The issue of 'normalizing' homosexuality in our society is a different issue. We will never in this life have a holy and righteous nation, however
Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.


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